If someone takes hormone blockers for several years before deciding to stop, does puberty proceed the same as in a younger person?
Since this is a controversial thread, I feel at liberty to say: while I was never trans, I was pretty ambivalent about my gender as a young person. It wasn’t until after I’d gone through puberty and had multiple years of estrogen (through the natural process of puberty) that I felt “feminine”. Gender kind of partly feels like a process you go through vs an identity.
This is actually one of the key things about cis versus trans psychological makeup. It’s kind of more useful to look at the majority cis experience as a sort of flexibility of sexual phenotype (- what looks or appears male or female). The majority of cis people are actually fairly fluid in their concept and Preferrence of not really gender - but sex characteristics and they mentally adapt to meet whatever gender expectations and circumstances they end up in usually as a path of least resistance.
Transness (and a small theoretical subset of cis people ) actually experience the opposite of this : sexual phenotype rigidity. It’s like there’s a setting in the brain dailed all the one to one side of the brain’s expectation of physical sex characteristics. Gender as a concept of “feminine and masculine” as categories of social expectations of behaviour and culture is kind of is just the performative baggage on top. What is really happening is almost 100% about the body’s characteristics and the reason social engineering is such a big deal is because language is a mirror. If someone calls you by the wrong name or pronoun that is actually mapping onto you perceiving your own body’s through someone else and you can’t control how the feedback makes you feel because you are rigidly stuck on an independent internal reward/punishment system. Disparity brings pain, matching the expectation brings joy. Nothing is neutral.
The “gender performativity” concept a’la Judith Butler is actually more in line with a cis person’s concept of gender than a trans persons and untangling the two is really difficult because there’s not as much backwards engineering what cis people are actually like to properly compare. I can tell you though after speaking to a lot of both cis and trans people about their experiences that this is actually more like two entirely unique theories of how the idea of “gender” works where “gender” is actually meaning two kind of related concepts but not quite 1 to 1. There’s a fundamental difference that lies deep under this thing.
If you got any questions feel free to fire away. I am a part of a block of citizen research by a group of trans people trying to gain a better understanding of what is actually going on in the heads of cis people regarding gender. There’s some stuff we’re beginning to sketch out as these two groups talking across each other both with improperly established expectations of what the other experiences.
We are a long way from publishing anything because a lot of us are rag tag academics due to us being kind of a minority but there’s something up. We may be verging on a way easier future explanation for what trans people are in relation to cis people and it could be particularly disruptive to some limited sections of the non-binary community.
If someone takes hormone blockers for several years before deciding to stop, does puberty proceed the same as in a younger person?
Pretty much, yeah. There’s legitimate concern regarding bone growth (height, density) but it’s usually fine and nothing compared to the known problems with being forced to live in dysphoria.
I was pretty ambivalent about my gender
Gender kind of partly feels like a process you go through vs an identity.
Gender is a lot of things and different for everyone. I remain very ambivalent about my gender as a man in my 30s. It’s probably most accurate to call myself agendered but biologically and socially I’m male so I don’t think it’s worth the fuss. It strains my imagination to contemplate “feeling masculine/feminine”. The point is that you can’t necessarily apply your (perfectly valid) experience to others and making trans people go through natural puberty dooms them to irreversible changes that can cause severe psychological distress.
Girls treated in childhood with GnRHa have normal BMI, BMD, body composition, and ovarian function in early adulthood. FH is not increased in girls with ICPP in whom GnRHa was initiated at about 8 yr. There is no evidence that GnRHa treatment predisposes to polycystic ovary syndrome or menstrual irregularities.
I also want to say here that I have known two kids to be on blockers. Both had to drive several hours out of state to access their treatment. One of them almost was removed from their home by the state solely because they were trans and receiving blockers - a family friend who has received death threats and harassment and has had to go to court several times because she recognizes her son for who he is. The right wing propaganda sphere likes to pretend blockers are being handed out like candy, but that is not the case.
I’m not trying to push an agenda here. As a parent, I’m honestly trying to understand the ramifications of these treatments. Because as a leftists, asking these questions becomes verboten, as if you hate trans people to question any treatment.
But really (since this is a controversial thread) I just don’t want my child taking a knife to, and hindering the functionality of, any part of their body that was already working just fine. This is especially true for parts that enables an enormous amount of human bonding and the human experience, like sexuality. It feels akin to circumcision/ genital mutilation in my mind, and if that’s what they decide they want as an adult, I wouldn’t stop them. But as their guardian, who safeguards their person for their future self, I would have been willing to divorce my husband over circumcision (at the time we disagreed on it, but we only had daughters). There’s no way most parents without an ideology want to risk long term damage to their child for something uncertain or fluid.
I know I already replied to you in another comment but I posted a big breakdown of how trans healthcare for kids actually works and isn’t as scary as people think. If you are interested just check my post history. I Included the actual less destructive nature of horomone treatment during puberty in regards to the total number, invasiveness quotient and surgeries experienced later in life. But surgery isn’t really a thing for trans kids.
A lot of what you are experiencing with trans discourse is a poisoned well. The issue of trans health care has been sold to the masses as being too quick, lead by the whims of the child, involving a lot of medically scary things that seem irreversible and it operates in a weird blind zone where people don’t really understand trans people’s biological capabilities well or their psychological dispositions.
In some places it can be good to step back and ask where your opinion is actually coming from because this is a very convoluted and non-intuitive branch of medicine for a casual outsider. Parents of trans people and young trans people themselves essentially learn decently advanced pediatric and endocrinology concepts as part of the basic consent process and as a parent of cis kids that is going to seem a lot more scary without an individual personal proof of psychological benefit you get from seeing a child develop.
Here is the very common trans parent scenario :
Your child who has had massive anxiety all their life, They have stress related physical symptoms, they have neurotic behaviours that appear as psychological disorders, they get sick often and are withdrawn from social groups and have a hard time making friends.
You discover your child identifies as trans and asks to go by a different name. You adjust, you change their hair and clothes. Almost immediately health conditions you didn’t know were related start to clear up, nervous ticks evaporate. They start forming better and stronger attachments to peers. They start showing more verve for life and pursuing hobbies and sports. The behaviour is so startling and overwhelmingly positive it is impossible not to link it to that choice.
It really is the case where the science and care plans aren’t super intuitive for someone just dipping their toes in this water. If you don’t have a trans kid then chances are good you haven’t seen the day and night psychological changes to thriving from not thriving that social transition brings. It’s a process and parents know their children. Parents, as a general rule, don’t sign onto things that seem scary unless they are convinced. A psychotic parent also would have a really hard time getting a cis kid through trans healthcare because there’s a panel of experts that check all the angles from school and home life to a lot of developmental markers. Doctors treat children’s long term outcomes as sacrosanct so the burden of proof of benefit is way higher than the average person knows.
But really (since this is a controversial thread) I just don’t want my child taking a knife to, and hindering the functionality of, any part of their body that was already working just fine.
But that isn’t happening. You have to recognize that there is a huge fucking propaganda campaign being held to convince you that children are walking to clinics and getting their dicks and breasts chopped off. Surgery doesn’t even make sense until all the parts are fully developed anyway.
Care is mostly affirming pronouns and names, sometimes puberty blockers.
Sexual reassignment surgery and top surgery are types of treatment. Another type is puberty blockers, which I asked about and you responded with talking points instead of information.
Also, what is the end game of puberty blockers? I assumed if you were a trans boy and took them, you got surgery as an adult to remove for example, breast buds so they never develop into breasts. Are you saying people stay on puberty blockers their whole lives?
Sexual reassignment surgery and top surgery are types of treatment. Another type is puberty blockers, which I asked about and you responded with talking points instead of information.
Surgery is irrelevant when talking about the treatment of 99.999% of transgender teens. Making the conversation about surgery is falling for right wing talking points.
The “end game” is presumably that one goes on HRT to experience the correct puberty. Most trans men just take testosterone, trans women often take an anti-androgen (spiro) with their estrogen.
As far as removing breast buds, I’m not sure if that would be needed or not. Regardless, removing breast buds would be possible with perioareolar top surgery, which is much less invasive than full double mastectomy (I wasn’t lucky enough to go on blockers, but I was small enough to get a peri - it was an outpatient procedure which took me like 3 days to sleep off. Double mastectomies are usually much more involved.)
Surgery is irrelevant when talking about the >treatment of 99.999% of transgender teens. Making >the conversation about surgery is falling for right >wing talking points.
That’s fine. It’s an extreme example to illustrate the perspective: most parents will err on the side of “Do no harm.” You are misidentifying the perspective you’re fighting. I am more likely to live in a liberal bubble than a conservative one. It’s just where my mind (and the average parent’s mind?) automatically goes. One method of philosophical reasoning is to start with the extremes and then narrow down to the center/ more likely scenarios that are shades of the extreme… I think that’s common?
The “end game” is presumably that one goes on >HRT to experience the correct puberty. Most trans >men just take testosterone, trans women often take >an anti-androgen (spiro) with their estrogen.
How do they prevent their bodies from producing sexual hormones they don’t want? Removal of the testes/ ovaries? Ablating the adrenal gland ? (pretty sure that’s not a thing … It would have other serious ramifications).
One method of philosophical reasoning is to start with the extremes and then narrow down to the center/ more likely scenarios that are shades of the extreme…
My state is about to follow Kansas and revoke the “M” on my drivers license, which I’ve had for 10 years. This will put me in physical danger and harm my ability to find employment. No one needs you to play devils advocate here.
How do they prevent their bodies from producing sexual hormones they don’t want?
Spiro for trans women, not really a problem for trans men. There’s estrogen floating around in my body right now, but the testosterone overwhelms it.
Removal of the testes/ ovaries?
Sometimes. Hysterectomy for trans men and orchi for trans women are common in adulthood.
If someone takes hormone blockers for several years before deciding to stop, does puberty proceed the same as in a younger person?
Since this is a controversial thread, I feel at liberty to say: while I was never trans, I was pretty ambivalent about my gender as a young person. It wasn’t until after I’d gone through puberty and had multiple years of estrogen (through the natural process of puberty) that I felt “feminine”. Gender kind of partly feels like a process you go through vs an identity.
This is actually one of the key things about cis versus trans psychological makeup. It’s kind of more useful to look at the majority cis experience as a sort of flexibility of sexual phenotype (- what looks or appears male or female). The majority of cis people are actually fairly fluid in their concept and Preferrence of not really gender - but sex characteristics and they mentally adapt to meet whatever gender expectations and circumstances they end up in usually as a path of least resistance.
Transness (and a small theoretical subset of cis people ) actually experience the opposite of this : sexual phenotype rigidity. It’s like there’s a setting in the brain dailed all the one to one side of the brain’s expectation of physical sex characteristics. Gender as a concept of “feminine and masculine” as categories of social expectations of behaviour and culture is kind of is just the performative baggage on top. What is really happening is almost 100% about the body’s characteristics and the reason social engineering is such a big deal is because language is a mirror. If someone calls you by the wrong name or pronoun that is actually mapping onto you perceiving your own body’s through someone else and you can’t control how the feedback makes you feel because you are rigidly stuck on an independent internal reward/punishment system. Disparity brings pain, matching the expectation brings joy. Nothing is neutral.
The “gender performativity” concept a’la Judith Butler is actually more in line with a cis person’s concept of gender than a trans persons and untangling the two is really difficult because there’s not as much backwards engineering what cis people are actually like to properly compare. I can tell you though after speaking to a lot of both cis and trans people about their experiences that this is actually more like two entirely unique theories of how the idea of “gender” works where “gender” is actually meaning two kind of related concepts but not quite 1 to 1. There’s a fundamental difference that lies deep under this thing.
This a really interesting response. Thank you!
If you got any questions feel free to fire away. I am a part of a block of citizen research by a group of trans people trying to gain a better understanding of what is actually going on in the heads of cis people regarding gender. There’s some stuff we’re beginning to sketch out as these two groups talking across each other both with improperly established expectations of what the other experiences.
We are a long way from publishing anything because a lot of us are rag tag academics due to us being kind of a minority but there’s something up. We may be verging on a way easier future explanation for what trans people are in relation to cis people and it could be particularly disruptive to some limited sections of the non-binary community.
Pretty much, yeah. There’s legitimate concern regarding bone growth (height, density) but it’s usually fine and nothing compared to the known problems with being forced to live in dysphoria.
Gender is a lot of things and different for everyone. I remain very ambivalent about my gender as a man in my 30s. It’s probably most accurate to call myself agendered but biologically and socially I’m male so I don’t think it’s worth the fuss. It strains my imagination to contemplate “feeling masculine/feminine”. The point is that you can’t necessarily apply your (perfectly valid) experience to others and making trans people go through natural puberty dooms them to irreversible changes that can cause severe psychological distress.
This study on several cis girls suggests that there’s nothing unusual about puberty post blockers.
I also want to say here that I have known two kids to be on blockers. Both had to drive several hours out of state to access their treatment. One of them almost was removed from their home by the state solely because they were trans and receiving blockers - a family friend who has received death threats and harassment and has had to go to court several times because she recognizes her son for who he is. The right wing propaganda sphere likes to pretend blockers are being handed out like candy, but that is not the case.
I’m not trying to push an agenda here. As a parent, I’m honestly trying to understand the ramifications of these treatments. Because as a leftists, asking these questions becomes verboten, as if you hate trans people to question any treatment.
But really (since this is a controversial thread) I just don’t want my child taking a knife to, and hindering the functionality of, any part of their body that was already working just fine. This is especially true for parts that enables an enormous amount of human bonding and the human experience, like sexuality. It feels akin to circumcision/ genital mutilation in my mind, and if that’s what they decide they want as an adult, I wouldn’t stop them. But as their guardian, who safeguards their person for their future self, I would have been willing to divorce my husband over circumcision (at the time we disagreed on it, but we only had daughters). There’s no way most parents without an ideology want to risk long term damage to their child for something uncertain or fluid.
I know I already replied to you in another comment but I posted a big breakdown of how trans healthcare for kids actually works and isn’t as scary as people think. If you are interested just check my post history. I Included the actual less destructive nature of horomone treatment during puberty in regards to the total number, invasiveness quotient and surgeries experienced later in life. But surgery isn’t really a thing for trans kids.
A lot of what you are experiencing with trans discourse is a poisoned well. The issue of trans health care has been sold to the masses as being too quick, lead by the whims of the child, involving a lot of medically scary things that seem irreversible and it operates in a weird blind zone where people don’t really understand trans people’s biological capabilities well or their psychological dispositions.
In some places it can be good to step back and ask where your opinion is actually coming from because this is a very convoluted and non-intuitive branch of medicine for a casual outsider. Parents of trans people and young trans people themselves essentially learn decently advanced pediatric and endocrinology concepts as part of the basic consent process and as a parent of cis kids that is going to seem a lot more scary without an individual personal proof of psychological benefit you get from seeing a child develop.
Here is the very common trans parent scenario :
Your child who has had massive anxiety all their life, They have stress related physical symptoms, they have neurotic behaviours that appear as psychological disorders, they get sick often and are withdrawn from social groups and have a hard time making friends.
You discover your child identifies as trans and asks to go by a different name. You adjust, you change their hair and clothes. Almost immediately health conditions you didn’t know were related start to clear up, nervous ticks evaporate. They start forming better and stronger attachments to peers. They start showing more verve for life and pursuing hobbies and sports. The behaviour is so startling and overwhelmingly positive it is impossible not to link it to that choice.
It really is the case where the science and care plans aren’t super intuitive for someone just dipping their toes in this water. If you don’t have a trans kid then chances are good you haven’t seen the day and night psychological changes to thriving from not thriving that social transition brings. It’s a process and parents know their children. Parents, as a general rule, don’t sign onto things that seem scary unless they are convinced. A psychotic parent also would have a really hard time getting a cis kid through trans healthcare because there’s a panel of experts that check all the angles from school and home life to a lot of developmental markers. Doctors treat children’s long term outcomes as sacrosanct so the burden of proof of benefit is way higher than the average person knows.
But that isn’t happening. You have to recognize that there is a huge fucking propaganda campaign being held to convince you that children are walking to clinics and getting their dicks and breasts chopped off. Surgery doesn’t even make sense until all the parts are fully developed anyway.
Care is mostly affirming pronouns and names, sometimes puberty blockers.
Sexual reassignment surgery and top surgery are types of treatment. Another type is puberty blockers, which I asked about and you responded with talking points instead of information.
Also, what is the end game of puberty blockers? I assumed if you were a trans boy and took them, you got surgery as an adult to remove for example, breast buds so they never develop into breasts. Are you saying people stay on puberty blockers their whole lives?
Surgery is irrelevant when talking about the treatment of 99.999% of transgender teens. Making the conversation about surgery is falling for right wing talking points.
The “end game” is presumably that one goes on HRT to experience the correct puberty. Most trans men just take testosterone, trans women often take an anti-androgen (spiro) with their estrogen.
As far as removing breast buds, I’m not sure if that would be needed or not. Regardless, removing breast buds would be possible with perioareolar top surgery, which is much less invasive than full double mastectomy (I wasn’t lucky enough to go on blockers, but I was small enough to get a peri - it was an outpatient procedure which took me like 3 days to sleep off. Double mastectomies are usually much more involved.)
That’s fine. It’s an extreme example to illustrate the perspective: most parents will err on the side of “Do no harm.” You are misidentifying the perspective you’re fighting. I am more likely to live in a liberal bubble than a conservative one. It’s just where my mind (and the average parent’s mind?) automatically goes. One method of philosophical reasoning is to start with the extremes and then narrow down to the center/ more likely scenarios that are shades of the extreme… I think that’s common?
How do they prevent their bodies from producing sexual hormones they don’t want? Removal of the testes/ ovaries? Ablating the adrenal gland ? (pretty sure that’s not a thing … It would have other serious ramifications).
My state is about to follow Kansas and revoke the “M” on my drivers license, which I’ve had for 10 years. This will put me in physical danger and harm my ability to find employment. No one needs you to play devils advocate here.
Spiro for trans women, not really a problem for trans men. There’s estrogen floating around in my body right now, but the testosterone overwhelms it.