Everybody knows about the backstory, there was a civil war, KMT fled to Taiwan creating two Chinas sort of, maybe, neither recognises the other, whole thing. ROC (Taiwan) ended up transitioning from military rule to a multi-party democracy, while the PRC (mainland China) didn’t do that (they did reform economically, “socialism with Chinese characteristics” and all that, but still a one-party state, not a multi-party democracy). The status quo right now is that Taiwan is in the grey area of statehood where they function pretty much independently but aren’t properly recognised, and both sides of the strait are feeling pretty tense right now.

Taiwan’s stance on the issue is that they would like to remain politically and economically independent of mainland China, retaining their multi-party democracy, political connections to its allies, economic trade connections, etc. Also, a majority of the people in Taiwan do not support reunification with China.

China’s stance on the issue is that Taiwan should be reunified with the mainland at all costs, ideally peacefully, but war is not ruled out. They argue that Taiwan was unfairly separated from the mainland by imperial powers in their “century of humiliation”. Strategically, taking Taiwan would be beneficial to China as they would have better control of the sea.

Is it even possible for both sides to agree to a peaceful solution? Personally, I can only see two ways this could go about that has the consent of both parties. One, a reformist leader takes power in the mainland and gives up on Taiwan, and the two exist as separate independent nations. Or two, the mainland gets a super-reformist leader that transitions the mainland to a multi-party democracy, and maybe then reunification could be on the table, with Taiwan keeping an autonomous status given the large cultural difference (similar to Hong Kong or Macau’s current status). Both options are, unfortunately, very unlikely to occur in the near future.

A third option (?) would be a pseudo-unification, where Taiwan becomes a recognised country, but there can be free movement of people between the mainland and Taiwan, free trade, that sort of stuff (sort of like the EU? Maybe?). Not sure if the PRC would accept that.

What are your thoughts on a peaceful solution to the crisis that both sides could agree on?

edit: Damn there are crazies in both ends of the arguments. I really don’t think giving Taiwan nukes would help solve the problem.

I think the current best solution, looking at the more reasonable and realistic comments, seems to be to maintain the status quo, at least until both sides of the strait are able to come into some sort of agreement (which seems to be worlds away right now given their current very opposing stances on the issue)

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
    22·
    2 days ago

    And someone might say that the interim period of suffering of the hypothetical collapse of the PRC would be worth it to usher in a representative democratic system. I think both would be wrong, to be frank - but I see no reason to prefer your outcome of USA collapse over a China collapse (or vice versa).

    China already has democracy. In China, they have direct elections for local representatives, which elect further “rungs,” laddering to the top. The top then has mass polling and opinion gathering. This combination of top-down and bottom-up democracy ensures effective results. For more on this, see Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance.

    The dissolution of the US Empire would dramatically uplift the global south, whose surplus value is stolen by the US Empire daily. The millions who die regularly from sanctions would now survive.

    We also have many examples of failed revolutions.

    Correct, so the solution is to learn from both successful and failed revolutions, not to not try at all.

    Simply saying that I understand why you say it, but I do not share it. So therefore you saying it is irrelevant to me.

    Your flaws in analysis stem from metaphysical frames of analysis. It’s plain, clear, and obviously holding your reasoning back.

    No, it doesn’t. Nothing from Rimu that I have ever seen suggests he has a single racist bone in his body. It’s a vile hateful smear.

    A vile, hateful smear is sharing far-right propaganda about “organ harvesting” the way colonists spoke of colonized people. Believing outrageous lies about foreigners simply due to the fact that it justifies Rimu’s opposition to communism doesn’t change the fact that this is a chauvanistic view.

    And officially, China is already “apart of” Taiwan in the same sense but reverse. The user we are referring would likely regard the CCP as already “dominating” PRC and as threatening, one day, to also “dominate” the Taiwan. You are doing some comical pearl-clutching over a comment made by someone of Chinese descent.

    The difference being that the CPC is overwhelmingly supported, while the KMT violently took over Taiwan and slaughtered resistance for decades in a millitary dictatorship.

    Sure. So pretty much everyone you speak to on here will be a right-winger (barring specific instances - I assume social democratic viewpoints are more common, or if people are socialist - they’re not likely to hold revolutionary ideals in order to attain that). So what’s your point then?

    The majority of westerners are right-wingers, yes. Socialists are overwhelmingly revolutionary, though, this question was already answered definitively well over a century ago.

    The purpose here is effectively missionary. It’s not a religion, but the methods are similar in many ways. Instead of scripture, you have theory which everyone is encouraged to read and understand in order to acquiesce to your position. You have presuppositions loaded into your worldview that you use as assertions when interacting with people outside of it. You use the space given as a space to spread your ideals here.

    Word salad.

    I am a political activist, that uses real, materialist analysis of social structures and history to guide how I organize in real life, like any decent communist. Your argument is effectively against any kind of analysis and education, it’s pure anti-intellectualism. You speak of political science like Flat Earthers speak of Astronomy.

    And I am, and many others here just not remotely interested in that.

    I understand that not everyone is interested in communism, I exist in the real world. I also know that, by numbers, this is rapidly changing, and more and more people turn to tried and true methods of analysis and organizing to answer the problems of today that communists already accurately analyzed over a century ago, and continue to develop and analyze.

    • Skavau@piefed.socialEnglish
      12·
      2 days ago

      China already has democracy. In China, they have direct elections for local representatives, which elect further “rungs,” laddering to the top. The top then has mass polling and opinion gathering. This combination of top-down and bottom-up democracy ensures effective results. For more on this, see Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance.

      Genuinely not interested.

      Correct, so the solution is to learn from both successful and failed revolutions, not to not try at all.

      No reason to believe that a hypothetical US revolution wouldn’t meet the same outcome.

      Your flaws in analysis stem from metaphysical frames of analysis. It’s plain, clear, and obviously holding your reasoning back.

      I’m not giving you any analysis, just telling you that we are at a fundamental impasse.

      The difference being that the CPC is overwhelmingly supported, while the KMT violently took over Taiwan and slaughtered resistance for decades in a millitary dictatorship.

      Not sure what that has to do with Taiwan as it is now, or how that means that them having great approval ratings in China means people on Taiwan automatically share those views.

      A vile, hateful smear is sharing far-right propaganda about “organ harvesting” the way colonists spoke of colonized people. Believing outrageous lies about foreigners simply due to the fact that it justifies Rimu’s opposition to communism doesn’t change the fact that this is a chauvanistic view.

      You can think he’s sharing propaganda, conspiracy theories etc but then claiming he does it because he thinks that Chinese people are subhuman is a nasty, vile smear.

      I am a political activist, that uses real, materialist analysis of social structures and history to guide how I organize in real life, like any decent communist. Your argument is effectively against any kind of analysis and education, it’s pure anti-intellectualism. You speak of political science like Flat Earthers speak of Astronomy.

      And all you want to do on here is political activism, and nothing else on here. I’m not interested in being politically preached at.

      I understand that not everyone is interested in communism, I exist in the real world. I also know that, by numbers, this is rapidly changing, and more and more people turn to tried and true methods of analysis and organizing to answer the problems of today that communists already accurately analyzed over a century ago, and continue to develop and analyze.

      Trust me bro.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
        22·
        2 days ago

        Genuinely not interested.

        Facts scare you, but you sure seem to love spreading far-right propaganda, got it. Checks out.

        No reason to believe that a hypothetical US revolution wouldn’t meet the same outcome.

        There’s every reason to believe that if we learn from successful revolutions and avoid the pitfalls of unsuccessful ones that we will succeed.

        I’m not giving you any analysis, just telling you that we are at a fundamental impasse.

        No, you are giving me analysis. You equate the collapse of socialism in China with the dissolution of capitalism in the US based on abstracting them from their context, ie metaphysics.

        Not sure what that has to do with Taiwan as it is now, or how that means that them having great approval ratings in China means people on Taiwan automatically share those views.

        History is a process impacted by what came before it, not a series of random, static snapshots. You need to understand historical context to understand the future, what you are doing is an example of metaphysics.

        You can think he’s sharing propaganda, conspiracy theories etc but then claiming he does it because he thinks that Chinese people are subhuman is a nasty, vile smear.

        If someone shared a story of Haitian immigrants eating cats and dogs off the street, would you not say that this is baked in racism? If neither are baked in reality but are instead pushed to support an agenda, then it’s quite obvious that racism plays a part.

        And all you want to do on here is political activism, and nothing else on here. I’m not interested in being politically preached at.

        Is it not my right to advocate for better when abiding by the rules?

        Trust me bro.

        • Skavau@piefed.socialEnglish
          12·
          2 days ago

          Facts scare you, but you sure seem to love spreading far-right propaganda, got it. Checks out.

          What have I spread?

          History is a process impacted by what came before it, not a series of random, static snapshots. You need to understand historical context to understand the future, what you are doing is an example of metaphysics.

          This doesn’t change the fact that most people on Taiwan don’t want to be governed by the CCP and their history of emerging from a brutal dictatorship doesn’t invalidate what they are now.

          Is it not my right to advocate for better when abiding by the rules?

          It is your right to evangelise, but it’s going to put people off.

          If someone shared a story of Haitian immigrants eating cats and dogs off the street, would you not say that this is baked in racism? If neither are baked in reality but are instead pushed to support an agenda, then it’s quite obvious that racism plays a part.

          The ‘organ harvesting’ stories, accusations, investigations etc have been around for years, decades and been at a much higher level of investigation than the baseless, completely random claims of Haitians eating cats and dogs in Springfield as shouted out suddenly by Trump during the debate. It also concerns allegations towards government practices, as opposed to casting aspersions towards people purely because they’re of Haitian ancestry (or alleged - as much of the claims in the USA often just made the assumption that if a black person did something related to these claims, they must be of Haitian heritage).

          How does your polling data contrast to young people’s opinions on communism as compared to 2015, 2005, 1995 etc? Do we have historical data to compare this to?

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
            22·
            2 days ago

            What have I spread?

            You legitimized the blatant propaganda about “organ harvesting” in order to defend Rimu.

            This doesn’t change the fact that most people on Taiwan don’t want to be governed by the CCP and their history of emerging from a brutal dictatorship doesn’t invalidate what they are now.

            Nope, but it contextualizes why, as the US Empire decays and pulls out of Taiwan, it’s likely that reunification will become dominant as Taiwan lags economically behind the PRC.

            It is your right to evangelise, but it’s going to put people off.

            My activism seems to only put some people off, and these kinds of people are the ones that already have their minds made up, like yourself. I know that my work in real life and my posting online has directly contributed to creating more communists, which is net positive for sure.

            Likewise, I have seen your PieFed evangelizing put people off of PieFed, but likely by people that wouldn’t want to use PieFed anyways.

            The ‘organ harvesting’ stories, accusations, investigations etc have been around for years, decades and been at a much higher level of investigation than the baseless, completely random claims of Haitians eating cats and dogs in Springfield as shouted out suddenly by Trump during the debate. It also concerns allegations towards government practices, as opposed to casting aspersions towards people purely because they’re of Haitian ancestry (or alleged - as much of the claims in the USA often just made the assumption that if a black person did something related to these claims, they must be of Haitian heritage).

            “Trust me bro.” Seriously, investigate the McCain institute claims you’re repeating with an ounce of intellectual honesty. They are baseless and rely on “eyewitness reports” alone, typically from the Falun Gong, itself a far-right cult. Here’s an example of investigating claims made by the Falun Gong about organ harvesting, with no evidence found. You’re repeating far-right propaganda.

            How does your polling data contrast to young people’s opinions on communism as compared to 2015, 2005, 1995 etc? Do we have historical data to compare this to?

            Not the same institute, but polling in favor of socialism/communism has been steadily increasing in the US over time. This is backed up by consistent polling.

            • Skavau@piefed.socialEnglish
              12·
              2 days ago

              You legitimized the blatant propaganda about “organ harvesting” in order to defend Rimu.

              I said I didn’t regard it as inherently racist.

              Nope, but it contextualizes why, as the US Empire decays and pulls out of Taiwan, it’s likely that reunification will become dominant as Taiwan lags economically behind the PRC.

              Depends on if by “pull out” you just mean militarily. USA moving out of Taiwan in terms of committing to defending them doesn’t necessarily mean that their economy would degrade.

              Likewise, I have seen your PieFed evangelizing put people off of PieFed, but likely by people that wouldn’t want to use PieFed anyways.

              I don’t evangelise for Piefed. I defend it a lot, but I never really tell people they must use it.

              “Trust me bro.” Seriously, investigate the McCain institute claims you’re repeating with an ounce of intellectual honesty. They are baseless and rely on “eyewitness reports” alone, typically from the Falun Gong, itself a far-right cult.

              There’s all kinds of organisations listed on there. The point is regardless of what you claim, it has been at a much higher level of reputation than the Haitian claims.

              Not the same institute, but polling in favor of socialism/communism has been steadily increasing in the US over time. This is backed up by consistent polling.

              Socialism will absolutely include a ton of social-democrats and incrementalists. The second link you’ve referred to here is a report on the same poll that focuses on their support for “socialism”. Specifically, what polls that directly ask people about communism can we refer to from the 90s, 00s, 10s etc?

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                32·
                2 days ago

                I said I didn’t regard it as inherently racist.

                You also defended and legitimized the viewpoint itself.

                Depends on if by “pull out” you just mean militarily. USA moving out of Taiwan in terms of committing to defending them doesn’t necessarily mean that their economy would degrade.

                Taiwan depends on exports of semiconductors, without the US presense millitarily and economically and as the PRC improves its semiconductor production Taiwan will be economically compelled to fully reintegrate.

                I don’t evangelise for Piefed. I defend it a lot, but I never really tell people they must use it.

                Cool, so I’m not an evangelist then.

                There’s all kinds of organisations listed on there. The point is regardless of what you claim, it has been at a much higher level of reputation than the Haitian claims.

                They have the same level of credibility. The fact that more westerners fall for anti-China propaganda does not mean that it is more credible.

                Socialism will absolutely include a ton of social-democrats and incrementalists. The second link you’ve referred to here is a report on the same poll that focuses on their support for “socialism”. Specifically, what polls that directly ask people about communism can we refer to from the 90s, 00s, 10s etc?

                Social democrats are not included in socialism, and incrementalists are fringe. Socialism is inherently pre-communist, and thus rising attitudes towards socialism are linked to rising attitudes towards communism. There’s no consistent polling of communism specifically in the US over time, but you can compare these numbers above with the numbers from 1983.

                • Skavau@piefed.socialEnglish
                  13·
                  2 days ago

                  You also defended and legitimized the viewpoint itself.

                  It’s clearly got more history and investigations behind it historically than the “cats and dogs” rubbish from Trump which literally cast aspersions on individuals because they are from Haitian (or even just assumed to be) rather than the organ-harvesting thing which attacks the government, not Chinese people individually. What would be comparably racist here would be people making claims about Chinese hygiene or food after COVID.

                  Taiwan depends on exports of semiconductors, without the US presense millitarily and economically and as the PRC improves its semiconductor production Taiwan will be economically compelled to fully reintegrate.

                  Why would the USA cut them off economically down the line? Because of semiconductor supply changes? Maybe. I really wouldn’t celebrate the prospect of a nation being economically pressured into joining another country when they don’t want to though.

                  Cool, so I’m not an evangelist then.

                  I disagree. I once saw post by you basically saying you specifically use your .ml account for outreach so in that sense, you are.

                  They have the same level of credibility. The fact that more westerners fall for anti-China propaganda does not mean that it is more credible.

                  I haven’t looked into the allegations specifically myself, beyond being aware of them having been made when I see a news article pop up about it from time-to-time.

                  Social democrats are not included in socialism

                  I know, but polls are often vague when using terms, and so plenty of people also answer in that same spirit - so you can get plenty of people who aren’t actually socialists may well answer “yes” to that in the first place.

                  There’s no consistent polling of communism specifically in the US over time, but you can compare these numbers above with the numbers from 1983.

                  Right, so on the question of communism specifically, we can’t know how young people felt about it in the 90s, 00s, 10s etc to make a useful comparison for how it has grown here or whether or not it was at any point higher etc.

                  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                    32·
                    2 days ago

                    It’s clearly got more history and investigations behind it historically than the “cats and dogs” rubbish from Trump which literally cast aspersions on individuals because they are from Haitian (or even just assumed to be) rather than the organ-harvesting thing which attacks the government, not Chinese people individually. What would be comparably racist here would be people making claims about Chinese hygiene or food after COVID.

                    The major difference is that the allegations are against foreigners, not immigrants. The claims of organ harvesting harken to colonial arguments against “savages” that can’t govern themselves properly.

                    Why would the USA cut them off economically down the line?

                    Because the US Empire is declining, and has less and less financial power, plus the PRC will be able to undercut Taiwanese production eventually anyways.

                    I disagree. I once saw post by you basically saying you specifically use your .ml account for outreach so in that sense, you are.

                    But by your own admission, an evangelist forces conversion. I don’t. Use consist definitions. Further, are all activists that focus on actvism “evangelists” to you, or just left-wing ones?

                    I haven’t looked into the allegations specifically myself, beyond being aware of them having been made when I see a news article pop up about it from time-to-time.

                    So you’re uncritically giving credibility to far-right propaganda, then, and are comfortable spreading it.

                    I know, but polls are often vague when using terms, and so plenty of people also answer in that same spirit - so you can get plenty of people who aren’t actually socialists may well answer “yes” to that in the first place.

                    Sure, but it’s important to contextualize that with shifting demographics overall, and the knowledge that as socialism spreads, misconceptions about it shrink away among those that describe themselves as such.

                    Right, so on the question of communism specifically, we can’t know how young people felt about it in the 90s, 00s, 10s etc to make a useful comparison for how it has grown here or whether or not it was at any point highet etc.

                    This is vulgar empiricism. If you engage in actual analysis of material, real trends over time, contextualize them with declining opinions of capitalism, rising opinions of socialism, etc, then you can observe related rising in communist sympathies. Communist orgs like PSL are gaining in membership rapidly, and the statesian working classes are becoming increasingly radicalized. By focusing purely on abstractions, you again make the mistake of seeing history as static snapshots.