I get what you’re going for here. But another caveat to add would be that the people in this sort of relationship shouldn’t have children. They might be able to get away with that for one generation, but if incest runs in the family then it won’t take long for things to start going south
That’s ok. You don’t have to like what other people think. I don’t always like what other people think either. But it’s good to challenge and think through ones positions, I think everyone benefits from that. I think it’s critical, in fact.
But it’s good to challenge and think through ones positions,
For sure. And you certainly have made me think.
Having thought about it, I think one relevant difference between incest babies and the examples you gave is this.
If you were to prevent someone with a disability potentially passing it onto their kids, then you’d be saying “you should not be having kids at all” which feels like a civil rights violation.
But if you were to prevent someone from having an incest baby you’d be saying “you shouldn’t have kids with this specific person, but you are still free to have children with another person”. This doesn’t hit as hard. It doesn’t feel like you are violating their fundamental rights, just limiting its application in one specific case.
i think autism is alot different from DOWN syndrome. with DOWN there is a genetic/chromosomal abnormality which puts you at a very high risk, and should consult a genetic counselor
Not the person you asked, but you and everyone reading your comment know that’s not a good faith argument.
The reason incest is frowned upon and often illegal is because of the danger it poses to any potential offspring. Many genetic diseases rely on recessive traits that require both parents to carry the recessive trait in order for it to be exposed. If two biological siblings have a child, that child would therefore have a massive amount of recessive traits exposed since both parents would share a massive amount of DNA
At a population scale, genetic diversity is critical to survival of a population, and a collapse of genetic diversity through too much inbreeding tends to lead to a very unhealthy population that can be easily wiped out through disease. This is much less of a risk with random incest today thanks to how much humans move around these days, but the flip side is that there is some risk of this from so called “super surrogates” who have genetically fathered hundreds or thousands of kids. The likelyhood of these kids meeting and reproducing can be quite high, which can therefore noticably reduce genetic diversity in a population, and ultimately reduce the health of a population
I wouldn’t call the argument a bad faith argument. Perhaps there is a line somewhere, but ultimately, his argument is that “two people who have an increased chance of passing on genetic disorders can’t have children/have a relationship”.
For most people, when asked this question outside of the incest framing, would argue that the state has no role to dictate that line. The slope is too slippery and screams too much like eugenics. It’s only within the social taboo of incest do people think that argument is acceptable.
I think it is a very topical argument- mind you I am genuinely not taking a position, I am exploring the logical consequences of the argument. There are pitfalls in the line or reasoning going on the argument that they are making. This is how philosophical discourse works. It’s how arguments and logic works. Being emotional about it is fine, but it’s not conducive to exploring the consequences of the argument.
The reason incest is frowned upon and often illegal is because of the danger it poses to any potential offspring.
The purely hypothetical counter argument here would be that what constitutes a “defect” or “danger” is highly subjective and prone to abuse. Where do we draw the line? Either there is no line and anyone can freely breed offspring, or we are in dangerous territory where we are determining which qualities we as a society deem “unwanted”. What do we mean by “defect”? What do we mean by “unwanted”?
At a population scale, genetic diversity is critical to survival of a population, and a collapse of genetic diversity through too much inbreeding tends to lead to a very unhealthy population
Well that is an argument from utility. Who is to say that people must subject themselves to the “critical survival of a population”? What if people don’t care? If they refused to, what would we do? Force them not to breed, by, say sterilizing them? Surely you see the issue here.
I get what you’re going for here. But another caveat to add would be that the people in this sort of relationship shouldn’t have children. They might be able to get away with that for one generation, but if incest runs in the family then it won’t take long for things to start going south
Which is in my 1st sentence.
Whoops, misread that
Do you think people with autism, downs syndrome, or cognitive impairments should have kids?
I see what you’re trying to do here and I don’t like it
That’s ok. You don’t have to like what other people think. I don’t always like what other people think either. But it’s good to challenge and think through ones positions, I think everyone benefits from that. I think it’s critical, in fact.
(great thread BTW!)
For sure. And you certainly have made me think.
Having thought about it, I think one relevant difference between incest babies and the examples you gave is this.
If you were to prevent someone with a disability potentially passing it onto their kids, then you’d be saying “you should not be having kids at all” which feels like a civil rights violation.
But if you were to prevent someone from having an incest baby you’d be saying “you shouldn’t have kids with this specific person, but you are still free to have children with another person”. This doesn’t hit as hard. It doesn’t feel like you are violating their fundamental rights, just limiting its application in one specific case.
i think autism is alot different from DOWN syndrome. with DOWN there is a genetic/chromosomal abnormality which puts you at a very high risk, and should consult a genetic counselor
Not the person you asked, but you and everyone reading your comment know that’s not a good faith argument.
The reason incest is frowned upon and often illegal is because of the danger it poses to any potential offspring. Many genetic diseases rely on recessive traits that require both parents to carry the recessive trait in order for it to be exposed. If two biological siblings have a child, that child would therefore have a massive amount of recessive traits exposed since both parents would share a massive amount of DNA
At a population scale, genetic diversity is critical to survival of a population, and a collapse of genetic diversity through too much inbreeding tends to lead to a very unhealthy population that can be easily wiped out through disease. This is much less of a risk with random incest today thanks to how much humans move around these days, but the flip side is that there is some risk of this from so called “super surrogates” who have genetically fathered hundreds or thousands of kids. The likelyhood of these kids meeting and reproducing can be quite high, which can therefore noticably reduce genetic diversity in a population, and ultimately reduce the health of a population
I wouldn’t call the argument a bad faith argument. Perhaps there is a line somewhere, but ultimately, his argument is that “two people who have an increased chance of passing on genetic disorders can’t have children/have a relationship”.
For most people, when asked this question outside of the incest framing, would argue that the state has no role to dictate that line. The slope is too slippery and screams too much like eugenics. It’s only within the social taboo of incest do people think that argument is acceptable.
Yeah it was clearly made in good faith, don’t know what this guy is driving at.
His reaction just goes to show you though: this is indeed a controversial topic.
I think it is a very topical argument- mind you I am genuinely not taking a position, I am exploring the logical consequences of the argument. There are pitfalls in the line or reasoning going on the argument that they are making. This is how philosophical discourse works. It’s how arguments and logic works. Being emotional about it is fine, but it’s not conducive to exploring the consequences of the argument.
The purely hypothetical counter argument here would be that what constitutes a “defect” or “danger” is highly subjective and prone to abuse. Where do we draw the line? Either there is no line and anyone can freely breed offspring, or we are in dangerous territory where we are determining which qualities we as a society deem “unwanted”. What do we mean by “defect”? What do we mean by “unwanted”?
Well that is an argument from utility. Who is to say that people must subject themselves to the “critical survival of a population”? What if people don’t care? If they refused to, what would we do? Force them not to breed, by, say sterilizing them? Surely you see the issue here.