This isn’t really just directed at French users, but also anyone who’s country has had a recent major protest since COVID like Nepal or Hong Kong. And if these questions feel too personal or detailed, then just take it as the ramblings of a mad person I guess. I’ve just been feeling awful for months now, and the state of my country only continues to decline.
As I see the various videos going around of the current France protests, I just wonder how you make it look so easy and natural to have thousands of people protesting but also doing arson or chasing off cops.
How do you get people to care? I remember feeling astonished back in 2024 when I realized two of my former high school friends weren’t going to vote, one of them being a minority girl, which sounded insane to me. It literally takes a matter of seconds to less than 5 minutes to vote during early elections, which I have always done. But millions of people couldn’t even take the time out of their day to do that, even in States that actually make voting easy. So how do you manage to get millions of people willing to set a building on fire? Hell, just the youth alone. Maybe protesting would’ve been easier if I was still a minor, but I remember feeling faint just watching videos of BLM riots. I couldn’t imagine being in the middle of a crowd.
In addition to that, gathering people? I’ve been to a few No Kings protests, but the only possible public transport I would’ve had would be bus, and literally nothing else. Car is pretty much the only option, which I know hinders people as they’re far more traceable than metro and buses, but the distance too. My protest was in my city and neighboring cities, but I couldn’t imagine heading more than 2+ hours to a protest, and by car ( wonder if people could afford it with gas prices now…). So is it the public transport that helps? How far did people go to participate in riots in Paris? How many other locations are they occurring at?
How to you coordinate people? Inform them? We just had scandals about Meta censoring No Kings posts, and while I will say “that’s obvious, why use these platforms”, you also have to reach the people where they are. Are French people not posting this stuff on Big Tech media? Why isn’t France trying to censor or quell posts encouraging dissent? Why doesn’t Big Tech just assist them in doing a media blackout? I can’t imagine that all of the rioters are on decentralized, censor-resistant places like the Fediverse. So do the youth literally just walk up to each other and go “lets go riot”? Are people communicating through encrypted channels like Signal and Briar? They don’t just rawdog it on iMessage and Whatsapp, despite them being some of the most used chat apps? I mean, even Nepal had their informal election after the protests on Discord, which obviously isn’t secure or censor-resilient.
What about damage to locals? There are clips of random small businesses getting caught in cross-fire, and I’m reminded of people who took advantage of BLM to loot. Do businesses not leave? Do you not get food deserts? Do major businesses not pull out? How are people paying bills right now? Are workplaces and colleges just expecting people to be missing right now? I know you don’t have healthcare tied to work, but literally, is there nothing that makes you hesitate?
What about legal repercussions? People are filming and taking so many pictures right now, does the government not pursue them? Are there not CCTV cameras and “Flock”-like cameras recording who goes where and does what? Are they not tracking phones and social media accounts? Do people not have fear of being in jail for most of their life? Do people not have fear of never being able to find work because of it? What about transport, is it easy to buy tickets with just cash? Is there not fear of being tracked? I mean, Hong Kong protests focused on covering faces, but Nepalese students were just out there. Even Jan 6 rioters got caught before the Presidency changed and they unfortunately got pardoned.
How do you feel unified? I barely know the people on my street besides the fact that most of them are old or conservatives. I can’t even imagine trying to convince or talk to them, I mean these people literally have signs out on their lawns right now of the Republican candidates in my State. It amazes me that most of y’all seem to agree that the riots should be done. Like, I literally think if something like “Progressive Jan 6” happened, MAGA would just start killing people in the streets. I mean Charlie Kirk got shot by another white conservative man, and yet they sent bomb threats to unrelated HBCU’s because they’re fucking dumbasses and racist. I feel so much fear over something like Trump being killed violently because of events like that. Do you not fear of neighbors or locals ratting you out? Killing you? Hong Kong had “Do Not Split”, but every day it feels like people on Fedi argue about No Kings not being substantial enough of a disturbance and that violence is necessary to get change.
This also relates to fear of cops. Are they not armed with guns? Why are there so little casualties, if not full on deaths? When does the French government deem military force necessary? The US has quite literally burnt and bombed it’s own cities in the past for “uprisings.” What makes France hesitate? When do they go militarized on you?
But the biggest thing of all is, what about fear for those around you? Like I said, I fear that if Trump was assassinated, civil war would break out. Millions of people voted for him, thousands were willing to storm the capital over an election they lost, and there are gun freaks everywhere. How many innocent and unrelated people would die? Is there no fear of randoms being killed? Just getting shot for being in the wrong place and looking like “the enemy?”
I just wanted to know. I feel like I can do nothing. Around my friends, I’m open about my beliefs and choices. But I’m so afraid. Of dying. Of rotting in a prison to be another forgotten statistic. Of never getting to have a chance at life. Of never being able to be free of corruption. It’s just so different, and I wanted to know why. If it was my own cowardice or flaw or failure that holds me back. I don’t want to watch people get kidnapped off streets to die in ICE cells. I don’t want to watch police shoot children and abuse people. I don’t want to see the internet and real world become a panopticon hell-hole. But outside of voting and contacting reps, I just don’t know how. I want better, I want hope.
Unfortunately your question is very hard to answer. Many things are similar : many people in France don’t care, like the US; there are actual legal repercussions, especially given the protesters are young and get tricked into accepting plea deals; violence and property damage are divisive.
IMO you’re onto something regarding fear. The US is very far gone compared to France, which is more or less running business as usual. Virtually no one in France is fearing civil war as of now.
Public transportation is a factor but I’d guess population density more so : many people don’t go to protests so much so as they just live where the protests are. I’m unsure of that but there might also be a kind of proximity to power in which people blame things close to them as responsible, whereas in the US you might blame things that are very far away like Congress. France is both much smaller and much more centralized than the US, so it’s pretty easy to strike at something that unambiguously represents the state.
I think there’s a big difference in national consciousness because the French republic is heir to the 1789 revolution and thus teaches every school child its violence was legitimate. References to that are constant and regularly mobilize huge segments of society that normally don’t get involved in politics. The school system also teaches about protests like 1936 as the reason we have paid vacation days. It is my understanding that in US you get taught the founding fathers pretty much built the ideal society and you should be grateful for living in it.
I’ll have to disagree somewhat with other posters regarding unions and such. It is important that political organizations keep the spark going and spread their know-how, but the current events are not at all driven by unions or parties (those are ultimately geared into the system).
in case you want a serious answer, the first question is what do you protest for?
when you go to the street and put yourself in danger, you’re not doing it for some untouchable idea of justice. you’re doing it because you love your neighbors, because you feel like them and want them good. that of course requires having actual human connections to your neighbors, which i think in the US is not very likely to have. there’s a whole lot of inter-human contact that exists in other countries but not in the US, because narratives have displayed any kind of human interaction as inherently creepy and offensive somehow.
The main organizing actors are unions.
Protests are usually peaceful, but even then they are attacked by the police.
Rioters come mainly in 3 flavors:
- black blocks whose purpose is to create conflit showing the violence of the state
- opportunists who use the protest as a cover for looting (poor people) or damaging power symbols like banks or administrations (revolutionary people)
- peaceful rioters who got charged by the police and fight back.
Videos focus on violence. Peaceful protests are mostly ignored, as most media push an authoritarian agenda. Plus violence makes good pics.
Coordination is done via some posts on social media, details are passed on secure messaging platforms.
Damage to locals is supposed to be covered by the state, which is trying to pass a law passing the costs to all identified persons present without need of proof. Identified rioters can be sought after by the state, some end in jail. The ones who come rioting on purpose know how to move under the radar.
As for use of military force, it is being discussed. Armed forces are mostly far right, so the risk would be real.
It’s the organization, stupid.
There are student unions in France, like https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_étudiante, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Syndicale_Lycéenne, or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_High_School_Student_Movement
Same as there are tenants unions in Spain: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindicato_de_Inquilinas_e_Inquilinos_de_Madrid
Teachers are also striking in Madrid (no one knows about it because they are not looting any stores) because, you guessed it, there are teachers unions.
Being organized is what lets people plan big protests. US is no different, No Kings and Women’s March were big events.
Stop fetishizing violent protests. Violence makes protests more newsworthy but doesn’t lead to better outcomes.
Just wanted to add that most people protesting aren’t violent at all too, looters aren’t always protesters either.
About violence though, I’d love to have absolutely pacific protests, but look, we already did that like 14 times and no one listened, now they suddenly do…
If you check out history, all major achievements for the people involved violence, take that information and do what you want with it, because all violence doesn’t guarantee change either.
Why do you claim they listen now? They announced curfew but nothing was offered to students (except for small number of additional teachers). The violence simply changed the main topic from funding school to protecting the public which helps the far-right. The only thing achieved so far is increasing the chances of Le Pen in the upcoming elections.
IMHO peaceful protests aimed at supporting left wing candidate and motivating voters would be way more effective.
I didn’t.
About violence though, I’d love to have absolutely pacific protests, but look, we already did that like 14 times and no one listened, now they suddenly do…
Listening =/= conceding or taking action
Oh, so you mean that thanks to all this violence the government now realizes people are unhappy but still doesn’t want to do anything about it. Yeah, it seems like it was all worth it.
I don’t think it’s so much “fetishizing violent protests” as it is recognizing that peaceful ones don’t do anything. The real question I think is, how do we make the right people feel threatened by protests while also minimizing violence for violence’s sake?
as it is recognizing that peaceful ones don’t do anything
How fast everyone forgot that peaceful protests pushed Spanish government to call snap elections just weeks ago…
Every strike is a peaceful protests and unions win concessions from employers all the time. You just have to read the news beyond the front page to know about it.
Okay but this is getting into the “what do we mean by violence?” conversation. Disruptive but minimally-harmful-to-people direct action, such as general strikes, should be the goal–I agree. But the more disruptive your action is, the more the interests you’re challenging will escalate their violence to try to shut your disruption down, e.g. by arresting you, using tear gas, etc. What then?
Maybe you try to use the state’s violence to rally everyone to vote out the current stewards of the state and bring in ones that are more amenable to change. But you know full well that the new stewards are just going to do the same thing the moment people make any demands of them. Because ultimately, the stewards of the state serve the state, not the people. That’s the job.
Real liberation is only going to come through making the state scared. Since the state is demonstrably violent, I have a really hard time imagining a path to liberation that doesn’t involve, at the very least, the tangible threat of violence. I don’t know if what’s happening in France is the best solution, or even a good one. But I do know it is scaring the state, in the same way that Luigi Mangione’s actions scared the health insurance powers. And that, at least on its own, is a very good thing.
You skipped right through all sort of legal protests.
In Spain (and most probably many other places) there’s a minimum level of service that need to be provided set by the law. So for example, when a railway workers union announces a strike they legally have to maintain like 20% (don’t remember the exact number) of connections. There’s still a big disruption but it’s 100% legal and government doesn’t try to shut this down in any way. This usually is very effective and leads to quick deal between workers and the employer/state. I see deals like that in Spain all the time. Just this year metro workers in my town got a deal after a weak of strike and providing minimal services. Days ago deal was signed between Barcelona airport workers and the company after two months of strikes. Railway workers got a deal last year just by threatening a strike. As I said, this is happening all the time but since there’s no looting it’s not in the news and people don’t know.
You also have legal manifestations that, when peaceful, are not met with any violence from the state. Those are good at showing discontent and rallying people before elections.
Violence against government makes sense when you can actually win the fight (usually you can’t). Looting stores never makes sense.
I like this answer better than mine.
It turns out, places that are hard to invade (vast, with lots of geographical barriers) are also more resistant to internal revolt. Like you noticed, it’s harder to gather. You’re structurally constrained, exposed. Size itself makes a country more susceptible to authoritarianism because the protestor is less effective.
Then you add in the fact that every single American police department is essentially a paramilitary junta unto itself, armed with military ordnance and able to murder with impunity (even mayors have no real control over them), it makes rioting essentially a point at which you’re saying “kill me then, who cares?” And the cops get in their APCs and oblige you.
I do not say this to discourage you. It is valid to feel disempowered in a fascistic empire. I would suggest leaving, if you are able. If not, try and get more involved with your community. Help your neighbours, build community. That’s where it all has to start.
APCs… how quaint they have
beercatsbearcats now… though now I kinda want a beer-cat now 🍻🐈I’m not up on the latest delights of the 1033 program. Seems similar enough, from the perspective of a Molotov.
Me either I’m afraid… and it’s 5:02 AM here so unfortunately it’s going to have to wait until at least noon 😴
Gotcha… I mean, it’s a bit bigger than what we’d typically think of as an APC here. But yeah, it’s armored and full of dudes, so yeah, no real argument. I’m not a military guy or even a gamer so the finer points of an answer would take me time, and I’d probably still be off.
Perhaps a former current/former soldier could weigh in?
I’d settle for a beer though.
America and France are very different places. Other answers have gone into the structural, geographic and social differences that make French style riots unlikely in America, but those very differences also affect what would be effective.
The vast majority of French “rioters” are actually peaceful, doing little more than marching and being part of the discontented mass. The comparatively small amount of violence and looting is picked up on because it’s sensational, not because it is particularly effective. Those sorts of riots would, even if you could get people to take part, have much less effect in the US, for the reasons you and others have stated.
The visible riots and marching are really just marketing for the more important, and effective, part though, which is the economic halt that also occurs. This is the bit that Americans should be looking to emulate, as it’s the effective bit, and less likely to get you shot.
Get together with anyone like minded who you can find, and prepare. Build up local community resilience and mutual aid groups. These steps help whatever happens, so they’re a good way to pull in more people. Once communities start building up their own strength, they can stop, or reduce, taking part in the economy that supports the fascists.
For example, Walmart U.S. had net sales of $129B last quarter alone. According to their balance sheet, the property value of all of their stores, warehouses, and other property is about $136B. If people reduced their spending there by even 10% that would be a $12.9B hit, per quarter, or about the equivalent of close to 10% of their property portfolio without anyone having to go out on the streets, set fire to anything, or get shot.
the economic halt that also occurs. This is the bit that Americans should be looking to emulate, as it’s the effective bit, and less likely to get you shot.
Um… Well it’s indeed the far more effective part, but also that’s where crowds of people tend to get mowed down (historically at least)
The economic stop isn’t the bit that gets people shot, being on the streets rioting or marching gets them shot. Just staying at home or with your community, and not giving money to the companies does at least as much damage, and doesn’t need anybody to get harmed.
Yeah… No, not spending money is really marginal stuff. It doesn’t cause economic damage, it just affects the state of the economy, it’s just market conditions. By the time it starts to affect the supply chain, the government can step in to buy time, and eventually they’ll outlast us. If done in an organized fashion, we can pick winners and losers, but that’s not how you do economic damage
Real economic damage comes from disrupting the means of production. A general strike can do an amount of damage in days that no amount of boycotting will ever to
And historically, it gets a response. People have been escorted to work at gunpoint. They’ve even used the full force of the military against company towns that performed a general strike
It’s not safe. Nothing that threatens meaningful economic damage will ever be safe. At least we’re in a place where the military would likely refuse to turn their guns on civilians, but if we actually use our power as workers it’ll be met with some degree of violence.
It’s hasn’t been that long since they dragged the aircraft controllers out of their homes. There’s been recent talk of doing the same for nurses when they threaten a strike, and during Biden’s term he threatened to do it to rail workers when they performed a strike
Granted, we’re currently on a path where tens of millions are likely to die for easily presentable reasons, so we should be brave in the face of violence. We should just prepare ourselves
German here, so i’m speaking from the German perspective and protest culture:
There are some organizations who often plan protests. Peaceful ones at least. It can be worker’s unions, it can be political parties or it can be just some random people who came together to organize something. For example in my area, there is “Passau gegen Rechts”, who often organize protests and other social actions against the proliferation of far right ideology. It’s just a group of random people who came together and meet up every once in a while to exchange ideas or just talk in some pub.
I usually get the info either via their newsletter, or from Verdi, the worker’s union i’m part of. The organizers then talk with the town’s authorities and exchange info with police, so that everyone stays as safe as possible. If we for some reason couldn’t communicate with social media, we can do mail, phones, letters, SMS, or whatever else is available.
Americans seem to have that weird idea, that the entire country just meets up in some city and does the protest there. That’s not what’s happening. The vast majority of people come from around the immediate area. Either they’re directly from town or from the surrounding area, maybe up to 2 hours away. Since a lot of those local organizations are also organized on a country’s level with other orgs from other towns, cities and so on, they coordinate with them for a nation wide protest if necessary. Modern communication makes it easy. In some cases they also organize a bus.
Here’s how the last protest i attended worked: Verdi sent a newsletter about a protest on Saturday. I saw it and decided to drive into town to check it out. There, we met up with the student’s protest in the town’s center, and from there we walked up the street to the actual meeting place, approx. 5 km away (uphill btw). Lots of chanting, some angry drivers who couldn’t go shopping at Edeka because of that, and lots and lots of sun. Halfway through the “Omas gegen Rechts” (grandmas against the right) joined in. Once we reached the destination, we joined the other Verdi people, SPD, Greens, Seebrücke, some Church groups, lots of other random people and so on. Plenty of groups around. The whole thing took the better part of the day and then we went home.
The details can differ, the route and destination too, but that’s roughly the gist of it. I’m guessing it’s a bit of a culture thing. We Germans are already a bit lazy with protesting, but the Americans seem deeply propagandized into an unhealthy amount of individualism.
I don’t have answers for all your questions but I can try to give you my opinion on a few of them.
Why are french people able to organize and routinely protest by the hundred of thousands? I think it’s an heritage of our extensive socialist History. Unlike the United States, socialism has never been a bad word here in France, and we’ve had openly socialist and/or communist political parties, trade unions and non-profits since the 19th century, which for several times in our History had a huge impact on our society (at some point after WW2 the communist party was the largest political party in France for several years). While socialism is on the backfoot nowadays, I think it still has somewhat infused in our culture, and it’s still strong enough that parties and trade unions can still call for a national-scale protest with some success.
Is our police armed? Yes it is, and yes it sometimes uses lethal force, especially against minorities. It still hasn’t fired live ammo into a crowd yet (at least not in the 21st century), but they do love using “less lethal” weapons like rubber bullets, stunning grenades and tear gas, which lead to several “accidental” deaths and crippling of protesters. To be honest I am afraid of cops whenever I protest, and I try to be as far away as I can from them.
About looting, setting stuff on fire and material damage, don’t get fooled by media. The immense majority of protesters are just marching peacefully while a tiny, selfish minority takes advantage of the situation to get free stuff.
I invoke the frenchies of jlai.lu instance!
(Shared there so they might come and answer)
Lack of a repressive regime?
- 10 000 already arrested and counting
- police gases authorized protests before they start
- several cases of police trying to overrun kids with their car (7 in 2 weeks, might be more)
- use of stun grenades that are documented as firing rubber pieces all over
- direct hits with grenade launchers, aimed at the head and genitals
France has the most violent police of Europe and has been called out by the UN several times about it.
Ah… yeah, I’ve seen the footage. It looks bad… Though the bit with the cop car driving all over the place trailing something on fire was fairly amusing.
My intention was more of a contrast to what has become of the US of late. Your statistics make it sound worse in many ways, although many of the tactics sound very similar. Hopefully the French police have not been using those “rubber bullets” that seems to be a steel or aluminum ball, barely coated with rubber.
There’s also some footage of a US cop intentionally starting a fire with what appears to be a either smoke grenades or just incendeary rounds.
And the British invented “kettleing” which was used to very effectively here in both occupy wallstreet and various no kings protests.
Of course they use rubber bullets, kettling and agents provocateurs here too.
I would be surprised if they didn’t… and [Insert shocked Pikachu face here] if they didn’t attend an overpriced seminar hosted by the respective agencies on the citizen’s dime 😌
Uh… no.
Okay… but the question was essentially French people, how do you protest with ease. Not everyone in gen z protesting… so I’m not really seeing your point here.
And no, I’m not reading a 10 paragraph essay for additional context. It was a throwaway comment. Deal.
With all the protesters that lost a hand or an eye?
Wasn’t aware of that… hardly sounds easy to me.
Among others, in the last weeks, there’s been a 15 year old kid who lost a hand to a stun grenade, a 16 year old who lost an eye to a blast ball, and a 14 year old who had his jaw destroyed by a tear gas grenade launched 1.5 meter from his head.
There has been an increase in police violence since Macron became president, but it’s particularly gut-wrenching when the victims are so young. Some of them weren’t even protesting, they were just standing or sitting near their blocked high school.
Nauseating. I’m truly sorry to hear about that. Hope you eventually get some justice for their crimes and the economic reforms that you’re hoping for.
French have a >300 year history of central authorities that are both fierce and far away. Before that, other fierce regimes that changed with bad, bad wars.
So they are used to always carry some good amount of anger around. That than explode anytime, anywhere. Needs not much wake up calling, and zero coordination.
And they are usually standing “left” to an extent that no American can imagine. You could say they have two far left parties (not true, just for illustration) while Usa has two far right ones, and then a really good distance there in the middle!
