Something I had forgotten I realised last cycle that this post somehow reminded me of:
People argued we had to vote for democrats because they would lose without our votes. To them not voting and voting third party was essentially the same and it was actually just like voting for Trump, since the party would not be able to win if they did not get our votes.
Yet if you were to point out that since we aren’t voting for genociders like the democrats and therefore the party is sure to lose and thus, by their own reasoning, their votes are wasted; then they have to vote for the party I want them to vote for, if we are to beat Trump. It should be entirely reasonable if all that matters to them is beating Trump, yet somehow the argument was clearly faulty, despite it being the very same they make: “[Your party] will not be able to get enough votes to win, the most important thing is beating Trump, therefore you have to vote for [my party] otherwise it will not be able get enough votes to beat Trump!”
They can see the issue with the reasoning as long as it does not benefit them. Odd how that is.This tactical voting or lesser evil voting is nothing but a trap to maintain the status quo. It makes people vote for a fake opposition instead of creating a platform for dissemination of alternative political projects. The consequence is that political parties get ever more reactionary, since there’s no real opposition to the left and ample opportunity to go right.
Faucet should be labeled capitalism
They don’t care about capitalism. They don’t care about fascism either but they’ll nominally oppose it.
Voting maybe part of escalation.
Unless the fascists are able to edit the votes. But that would also be on escalation.
But voting alone may not be safe, if you are dealing with fascists as they will be ready for escalation(may even be wishing for it). You would need your own orgs, preferably communist/socialist orgs since they were one among the most effective against fascists based on history.
Voting can work as a piece of momentum-building for a principled leftist party. Voting for fascists like the democrats can never be part of opposition to fascism.
Serious question. What is your actionable alternative? Actionable as in something you do
Revolution, which depends on worker organizing in preparation for the inevitable crisis points of capitalism to take the entire working class in a unified direction against the capitalist state. Smash it, and replace it with one run by the working class, for the working class.
So unionizing?
That can be part of it, but trade unionism alone is not revolution, nor can it become revolution without revolutionary organizing.
Yes, you need a vanguard party. It’s easily to see when you look at India for example where strikes of dozens of millions, even over 100 million were organised in last few years but despite having the strenght way more than enough to topple the government and even entire system, they didn’t even kept the status quo.
Bingo. Bowing to spontaneity is a foolish endeavor, you need direction for mass and force to apply pressure in a pointed area. It’s like blowing up a balloon, it takes far less air to pop it if all of the pressure were able to be localized to a specific area, rather than generally spreading evenly.
Thats not even remotely the same
Disrupt the course of the water permanently (every day of the year), instead of a symbolic gesture one day out of the year.
In this case the water is the accumulating mass discontent and the drain is militarism and nationalism.
The faucet is capitalism. We need to put way more text on this leftist meme.
Vote as triage, but lower your expectations on a “big strong man” solving broken systems. Life is short; voting takes time from other meaningful activities. Triage, if time allows, but do other meaningful activities.
Being cautious of the “big strong man” will help recognition of the slide toward any of the flavors of fascism. Populists promise “for the people” or “for the workers” and then centralize “power to” and “power over”. The revolution results in the same broken systems with normal people with no power.
Regarding individual actions:
- Build mutual aid with neighbors
- Develop defence skills (firearms, explosives, hand-to-hand, drones, cardio, trapping, etc)
- Learn real world skills (gardening, mechanics, chopping wood, carpentry, ect)
No gods, no masters. All power to all people.
Just got banned from the USA community for, at least in part, asking this… Albeit less briefly and nowhere near as polite.
Your modlog is public, dumbass. You got banned for being an asshole. This uwu smol bean act you types try to pull off is so pathetic, at least stand by your behavior. If you have it in you to be a dick then you have it in you to admit you were being a dick. If you’re going to be a genocide denying fascist then at least have the guts to not go crying elsewhere about how you actually just a super chill civil dude arguing for socialism.
I’m interested that you call out the use of one slur in one thread, for stated reasons, and then use the word “dick” in this thread… what’s all that about then?
Genuinely, am I missing something?
Good question. Dick does not have the structural or historic connotations that the other does, it is effectively removed from the gender binarh. Just like calling someone cracker is in no way similar to using the n-word.
edit: In the case you were just trying to point out hypocrisy: You should have pointed out my ableism in using words like “insane” as a derogatory. If you had done that then I would have responded along the lines of
“Hey thanks for pointing that out, I appreciate the callout. It seems to me like you are attaching some sort of moral judgement to being informed about your choice of words. This strikes me as odd, nobody expects perfection, we just expect each other to strive to do better. When someone points out a fault as you did here, then that is just a helping hand for me to better myself, just as it is when I pointed out your usage of a sexist slur.”___Yeah, I thought that might be the gist for your reasoning. Thanks for the civil reply. Hope you didn’t mind me asking…
For the record I’m more towards the original poster’s view, the daily use of insults has transcended any deep rooted sexist connotations and we now live in a glorious linguistic free for all when it comes to insulting people.
No worries, I understand the confusion.
I think some words are, generally, free of previously regressive burdens, but I do not count the one you used as one of them. I struggle to think of any disparaging word about women that does not still carry an inherent core of sexism, but there is probably one out there. I do not need to find it.
Honestly, don’t overthink it. It was just that, in my opinion, I thought your word choices were incongruous so I sought out your reasoning. Like I said, thanks for answering - I understand where you’re coming from; but don’t personally agree. There was nothing more to it.
Unfortunately for you, your modlog is public and shows you were actually banned for genocide denial
You were there, stop bullshitting. Quote where I denied the genocide, let’s see it. What I did say was to get your head out of your ass and vote. Genocide denial is what’s going on with you guys, only putting the dems on a magnifying glass while the other party plans resorts in Gaza.
“Genocide isn’t so bad if it’s to build Israeli settlements and not American resorts!”
Literally your only objection to the actions of the current administration is that it’s Republicans doing it
Genocide denial is what’s going on with you guys
"I know you are but what am I!’
Fucking literal 12 year old
Your point of view is fucking disgusting.
Vote is good, go vote.
Dont vote for democrats or republicans though
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Downvoted for the sexist slur
Removed by mod
In those countries the word is not used as a slur, but as a familiar way of referring to one another, which is far from your usage. You pretty clearly did not intend to signify familiarity, but instead to denigrate by use of the word. There are many ways to be denigrating without being chauvinistic, being anti-zionist is not an excuse to do something bigoted.
Its like when liberals say shit like “Hahaha Trump is fat and gay with Putin!”
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Talk me through the last line. Why is it bad that Trump and Putin are gay? Why do you think homophobia is awesome as long as it is directed towards someone you dont like? Why do you think body-shaming is good to do when it is against people you do not like?
Language is cooked
I speak five languages. Fuck off.
It’s like saying 逃げるmakes you racist.
“Saying a word in a foreign language that sounds kind of like a slur in another language is just the same as saying the actual slur.” Great argument buddy.
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I’d don’t intend to be mean, but do you live under a bridge? I mean the story of how he got ram-rodded by the helicopter pilots kid that he was abusing caused him to wear a diaper. With all the leaks, do you think that didn’t happen?
So that isn't actually an answer to my question or in any way related to anything Ive been arguing.
It is very typical of your types to be allergic to answering questions, but please do try to answer them. In general I would recommend you actually read what the person you are trying to interact with writes - It helps you to actually have a gainful discussion. Otherwise you end up arguing against ghosts.
To help you I’ve honed the questions in even more: Why do you think Trump being gay is a bad thing? Why do you think the sexuality of a person is an inherent negative quality worthy of mockery, as long as the person is someone you dislike?
You also have yet to address the body-shaming. Is this because you do understand why it is bad, and by admitting to that then your line of argument for the homophobia would be transparently disingenuous?
Why homophobia
Mocking someone for being gay is homophobic. Pretty straightforward.
Languages
Okay? Then you should understand how dumb your argument is, and you should understand speaking more than one is more than enough to understand your argument and see the flaws in it.
You’re getting upset
I think you are confusing “reading what the other wrote and responding to it” with some other thing? But since we can apparently determine the others emotional state from a brief text: You’re defensive, reactive and malding
How is telling someone to fuck off different from using slurs?
How is not using slurs different from using slurs? Pretty simple: I’m not using them. You should really try to read what it is I am writing.
It’s the fucks who didn’t vote that got Trump elected.
That and election rigging.
A vote for Harris was basically a vote for Trump, since she was destined to lose.
So the fucks who put up a shitty candidate against Trump have nothing to do with it?
Dude, you just don’t know what the republicrats are. Really look into the two party system.
Your neighbor wants freedom as much as you.
Really look into the two party system
I have. What about you? They are both the same party, catering to two different population groups.
You haven’t answered the question though.
You seem to think the democrats are somehow any different. If you are my neighbor and you are arguing this much to vote for the fascist genocidal bigots that is the Democratic Party, then my neighbor does not want freedom, they want to kill Muslims.
Also answer the question. Why do you types always have such a hard time answering a question? Its basic social interaction, basic civility, and you can never do it. I suppose an imperious attitude does make sense when you are an imperialist like you are, but the democrats are supposed to be the civil imperialists, try to act like it.
lol, liberals have been reduced to political incels.
“I’m a nice guy, you OWE me your vote you stupid removed, and if you don’t give it to me then whatever
Chadthe RNC does to you is your fault.”Removed by mod
They actually do know what the words mean and they are using them in a correct manner. Try to explain, using your own words, why you think it is incorrect, so we can see where you went wrong and help educate you.
And when challenged on their rancid beliefs, liberals’ only fallback is to act as either Sartre’s antisemite or a caricature of the evil communist bad guys that we all absorbed as children. “Shut up! Sit down! You don’t know what you’re talking about, support the Party if you know what’s good for you! You are like a child, and I am a smart adult who knows that assisting with a genocide is like eating vegetables!”
As with all fascist rhetoric, liberal portrayals of communism were all projection. When events and people move beyond their control, their only idea is to put on the 40k commissar cap and start trying to root out heretics and traitors. Because the problem couldn’t possibly be them.
Actually the way elections work is the people who vote for a candidate are the ones responsible for bringing that candidate into office. This, in theory, leads to political representatives seeking policy that is popular within a large part of their constituency so as to have as large a voter base as possible. If you fail to do so, then you are likely to lose the election (See: Kamala Harris).
That’s like saying that 5 wheels on a semi that stop turning are responsible for the truck turning right instead of left.
Candidates win elections based on the numbers of people that vote for them, not the numbers of people that don’t vote for them.
I’m pretty sure that’s how electoral democracy works, but check me if I’m wrong about that, if there’s some byzantine requirement for a plurality of citizens that frames everything in a counterfactual way.
Uhm, if the wheels are functioning, then what is their use? Man, that’s a poor metaphor.
You are calling non-voters useless while defending their lack of operation?
I have nothing to say. You said it.
Why are you types so hell-bent on making conversation as difficult as possible? You write as though you are trying to convince people to vote for democrats, yet you consistently flee at any chance of having an actual discussion, resulting in only being able to preach to your genocidal choir.
Typically in forums such as these a person does not write in order to convince the one they are responding to, but to influence the people just reading the sidelines. In order to influence those people you have to make your position appear cogent and reasonable. If you continually fail to engage with anything the other argues, then all you do is make yourself look stupid and uneducated, reflexively defending a position you in no way understand.Your initial argument was terrible, yet instead of just writing that people decided to explain why it was terrible. The user you are responding to here did so via an analogy that could be better, but one that was completely understandable. Yet you decide not to engage with their argument, instead you behave like a petulant child playing dumb in the face of something they do not care to understand. Why then even write anything to begin with? What is the point of your text? I know I will not get an answer to these questions from you, since you types are allergic to answering questions for some reason. I don’t understand it, not even from a vitriolic or hostile perspective. When I am certain in my beliefs, my position, my reasoning, my arguments, then I do not shy away from answering simple questions or at least adressing why I feel they are beneath a response.
Lol, just throwing everything at the wall now
Fascists are trying to suppress/dissuade/undermine the vote… all im sayin.
You mean like how Democrats are actively sabotaging leftist candidates? Or how Democrats rig primaries? Or how they constantly run propaganda to dissuade anyone from even considering voting for a third party? Or how they gerrymander?
Really? I mostly see the fascists coming in to demand we vote for their genocider of choice.
Liberals are trying to get me to vote for pro-genocide candidates…all im sayin.
Way to pretend there couldn’t possibly exist a leftist critique of American electoralism on a platform created by Marxists, but you do you.
Yes, but also, the timing is always dangerous. Let’s removed about it all however much we want, but let’s not fall for the thought trap of growing disenfranchised from the voting process, however rigged it may be. Whatever argument you have against the system, we all have to admit that Trump winning the first time was not something even the establishment expected. If they can do surprises, so can we. Their biggest trick is to make you think your vote doesn’t matter when it so clearly does, even when the electoral college is stacked against it. The electoral college wouldn’t be so dearly protected if your vote didn’t matter.
… Not that I’m saying you personally hold these views, but I’ve seen them around enough that I feel the need to voice my thoughts as well.
Since you knew Harris would not win without our votes last election, and you knew we wouldnt vote for her, then why did you? Thats basically the same as voting for Trump.
Stop referring to us as “we”, because “we” aren’t liberals. We’re not part of your base. We are communists.
We don’t vote liberal and never will.
If our votes matter so much you better believe ee not going to use them on the genocidal monsters of the DNC
If our votes matter so much, then why isn’t @[email protected] mad at the democrats for not appealing to us and thus losing to the most evil man to ever exist who singularly made USA bad?
If I were in that place Id probably spend a bit more time yelling at democrats to please for gods sake get their votes! They’re single issue voters! Its so easy! Its all you have to do not let the fascist man win! Everything will be sunshine and rainbows and the bombs you drop will be Coated with candy, so for gods sake why cant you appeal to these simple single issue voters???But then again I haven’t lost two elections to Donald Trump, so what do I know?
So its going to the definitely-not-genocidal definitely-not-israel-loving goblins at the GOP? Because any choice other than Dems, including abstinence, is a vote for GOP and Trump. It’s virtually coded into the electoral college.
Like I get hating the dems, but Jesus Christ there’s king donkey kong over there, behind them, climbing the fucking empire state while holding an underage princess (and a fuck ton of redactions) in his hand.
p -> q
Because any choice other than Dems, including abstinence, is a vote for GOP and Trump.
Ok, then it’s a moot point because Trump is going to get 200 million votes and win in the largest landslide in US history
Man you’re fucking thick, lol.
How the fuck does not voting for a candidate count as a vote for the other one? Are you hearing yourself? You’re just making shit up.
Not voting for candidate A doesn’t mean candidate B got a vote in any shade of reality. But somehow, in your liberal hellhole of a psyche, the two actions are seemingly indistinguishable.
Dumb as hell, it is crazy.
This is literally elections 101 dude. You vote, someone votes against you, there’s 2 votes and theyre tied. You don’t vote, someone still votes against you, that’s one vote against you and none for you and you just lost. That is the literal scenario presented when you’re learning how to vote.
If you’re telling me you’re not voting because you’re going to bomb the Capitol and white house, or begin a revolution on election day, hey be my guest, but the truth is youll just stay home, letting others vote against you. I guess I expected too much out of you to understand such a simple concept.
Dumb as a box of rocks.
In that case I can ease your mind. Everyone here didn’t vote for the democrats 1000 times, but they didnt vote for the republicans 10000 times, so we actually gave democrats 9000 votes each. Sadly we all live in Bushwick, so our votes dont matter anyway.
You vote, someone votes against you, there’s 2 votes and theyre tied. You don’t vote, someone still votes against you, that’s one vote against you
You understand this isn’t a real world scenario though, right? In the actual system America uses you vote and it doesn’t matter because someone else’s vote counted 3 times more than yours.
The timing is not dangerous at all. The democrats themselves dont believe that “now is not the time” bullshit. They hamstring and sabotage left-wing candidates any chance they get no matter the time and place. Since the people espousing that bs dont believe it, then there is absolutely no reason I should.
Every time I hear people talking about “punishing the Democrats”, I see the full-on fascists growing in power shortly afterwards. You punished Hillary for sabotaging Bernie, Biden for being too geriatric, and Biden and Kamala for outright skipping the primaries. What happened in every scenario? The most morally bankrupt person we know just waltzed into power and started doing whatever the fuck he wanted, with some resistance at first, and then with ecstatic embrace. Are we really so eager to pave the accelerationist’s road?
Edit: oh hey I just realized it’s you from the other post on /c/USA. I got banned from that community for our little discussion. Had a reply for you and all. Hope you have a great November 3rd (or whenever elections are). I sure as shit won’t.
I do not remember you, it would probably have been easier if you had said anything novel or insightful. Or at least managed to engage with the actual things people are writing.
Nobody is talking about “punishing democrats” why do you people consistently make up arguments nobody is making? Relate to the actual position of those you disagree with, if you are so insistent on pursuing a discussion.
People are not voting for democrats because the democrats are not willing to represent them. This isn’t some self-damaging action out of spite, its basic politics - If you want a constituency, then you have to appeal to it. If you show yourself unable, unwilling or - in the case of the democrats - directly at odds with the needs of the people you want to vote for you, then you’re going to get 0 votes.The majority of what you have written is dismissed due to the fact you’re arguing against a position no one is holding. People aren’t on some simplistic “punishment” crusade. They want things to improve and the democrats have shown themselves to be detrimental to this end. If you cannot engage with this, then your agitation is pointless because you will only manage to preach to your genocidal Choir.
It does not help your case that you then continue to hallucinate other arguments. The majority of those that voted for Bernie in the primaries voted for Hillary Clinton in the presidential election (something that cannot be said for her supporters in the '08 election by the way). She lost because she has terrible political instincts. She elevated Trump to the republican nominee through her use of the Pied Piper strategy and then managed to eat shit because she has terrible instincts. She punished herself.
Regarding Biden: He won, in large part due to leftists voting for him as a “harm reduction” candidate due to fears of Trumps mismanagement of COVID, the increased focus on what ICE had been doing (under Obama as well), a worry about foreign entanglements, mismanagement of the economy, increased bloodshed abroad, the summer of 2020 and the BLM and abolish the police movements and finally Roe V Wade.
Biden then quickly went back on his promises about stimulus checks, giving less than promised and less times, he went back on his promises about the minimum wage and debt relief, he swept COVID under the rug and opened up even though we were still in the midst of a pandemic, he did absolutely fuck all to stop Roe v Wade being overturned, he basically started a proxy war with Russia, he committed a genocide and decided to massively expand both ICE and police budgets while doing fuck all about the still deteriorating conditions of the average american and US infrastructure, instead using the work those movements had done to push through bills that gave a bunch of money to cops, the military and his friends while crushing labour rights. He crushed Union strikes and when overworked laborers on railways with fucked infrastructure had monumental disasters his administration did all it could to swipe it under the rug. On the back of this we then had Kamala Harris who said “actually all of that shit is awesome, I’m going to be doing more of it and you’re wrong about things being more expensive than they used to be while you are getting paid less. Also genocide is awesome, vote for me or the orange guy wins and he’s going to be doing a genocide.” Somehow this wasn’t a winning platform and people, desperate for an inkling of competent politics, had to organise en masse to make the obvious undeniable: Please Just Do At Least One Thing We Ask Of You, Or At Least Pretend You Will. Harris decided to ignore this and she lost.Following her loss AIPAC has become radioactive, establishment dems are on the backfoot constantly running defense and more and more people are finally realising that unconditionally voting for a candidate promising death and destruction is not an effective way of creating change. You might make it some day too.
Accelerationist
If we really have interacted before then I know you know you are using the term wrong.
I look forward to your response where you manage to engage with nothing I write, answer no questions, hallucinate something I did not write, pretend I did not adress your many faulty arguments, make even more dogshit arguments resting on (if we are very lucky to be honest) half-remembered anecdotes with only a vague relation to reality (because we both know you’re far more likely to just outright lie and make shit up, like you’ve done here), and a painfully obvious attempt at changing the discussion to some other field you are also woefully ignorant in, because you are too prideful to acknowledge when your arguments come up short. Thats how you types always do. Or you’ll pretend to be obtuse. Maybe you’ll even call me a bot! Or just crack and use the slurs you’re so fond of using when you get mad.
Looking forward to seeing which it will be.edit: Oh well you got banned. Such a shame now I won’t get to hear your novel insights on how genocide is good actually or how ICE concentration camps are only bad when Trump does them. Maybe next time you’ll get to tell me that I have to be realistic and accept the only way of changing things is by doing the thing we’ve been doing to no await for decades now, and anything else is unrealistic. Fire off the big guns and explain that we have to delay things, think long term, but also we cant vote third party because that would only have effects wayyy down the road and it does not make everything better immediately - As opposed to voting for the corrupt fascists actively fucking over any and all leftist candidate, which will make everything good right now.
Biden for being too geriatric, and Biden and Kamala for outright skipping the primaries.
BlueMaga fascists literally can’t imagine someone actually be sincerely against genocide
I sure as shit won’t.
Good
what’s so difficult for democrats about being against genocide, war, and ICE? a few of them have said one or two good things but the party as a whole misses the mark and it’s pretty good odds that a given person doesn’t have one of the handful of good reps.
I totally understand feeling slimy as fuck being forced to vote for people like that. I don’t know what alternatives there are for the upcoming month other than just sucking up and going through with the voting. That doesn’t mean you’re sacrificing your morality or values by playing the game for election day. Just for those days, you play their game to try and claw some voice back. Every other day we must force them to play our game. We aren’t, we maybe can’t right now, but we can’t also let them play us on the few days we’re forced to engage them on their turf. Elections are the civic duty you go through as part of your social contract, but that’s not where our true fight lies. That’s how I see it at least; its a moment to hold the line, voice some sort of opinion, limited though it may be. It may be the only thing allowing you to organize in the future without being labeled a terrorist for your dissenting opinions.
Nobody can force me to vote for genocide. Weird how that works, isn’t it?
I totally understand feeling slimy as fuck being forced to vote for people like that
No you don’t, you won’t even acknowledge the degree of the Democrats crimes.
I don’t know what alternatives there are for the upcoming month other than just sucking up and going through with the voting.
Well there were two years to work that out.
Every other day we must force them to play our game.
Maybe you should have done that some time in the last decade then
It may be the only thing allowing you to organize in the future without being labeled a terrorist for your dissenting opinions.
Lol
No you don’t, you won’t even acknowledge the degree of the Democrats crimes
Well from where I’m standing its you guys who don’t acknowledge the degree of the GOP (and Trump) crimes. Like I see the hole on the ship but I’m a bit more worried about the other ship that put a hole into ours, still there, visibly loading up more slugs.
Well there were two years to work that out.
And there’s going to be another 2 years after this where more can be done, but only if people don’t vote for more fascism in this one.
Maybe you should have done that some time in the last decade then
I was a bit too busy being from a third world country to do anything about it, sorry.
Lol
Lol indeed
Sure we do, we just also acknowledge the Democrats do the very same. So since we want things to improve we realise we have to do something other than empower the only two parties that think genocide; corruption; police violence; mass surveillance; concentration camps; modern Gestapo; global warming; pulling the last copper wire out of the walls of the decrepit husks of the state; deregulation; constant bailouts for banks; Lockheed Martin; graft; the MIC; hunting down leftists, queer people, the homeless, POC, Union organisers and woman that want to be more than broodmares for sport; is awesome.
Who knows, it just might work if we stop unconditionally voting for fanatic theocrstic neoliberal geriatric fascists? Could be worth a shot, might work to try to do literally anything other than the thing we have been doing for several decades while everything has turned to shit. Actually voting unconditionally might have been part of the reason things suck now, since the politicians know they just have to say “he loves Russia” or “She’s gay!” And then their voterbase will suck it up and vote for them even though they think they suck.
Well from where I’m standing its you guys who don’t acknowledge the degree of the GOP (and Trump) crimes.
Nobody gives a shit. The genocide wasn’t better under Biden regardless of where you “stand”.
And there’s going to be another 2 years after this where more can be done, but only if people don’t vote for more fascism in this one.
That’s what you were saying 2 years ago.
I was a bit too busy being from a third world country to do anything about it, sorry.
Then shut the fuck up.
The smartest thing you could possibly do is shut the fuck up and stop libbing all over the place.
What, annoyed an ML is arguing common fucking sense? Ruining your accelerationist vibes? Sorry that I fucking despise Americans and their stupid ass choices. Guess that makes me a lib, then, for not wanting a modern Hitler as a neighbor.
Guess that makes me a lib
Yep
accelerationist
It’s like a 12 year old who just heard a new word and is using it everywhere even when it doesn’t make sense
Stop using words that you don’t understand, lmfao.
LOL
Those yandex servers must be back up
Classic nazilib.world, “anything not liberal is a BOTTTT”
