Plastic recycling basically everywhere is a scam. It requires direct government subsidization to be cost competitive with new plastic. Companies actually advertising that they do it or could do it are missing the forest for the trees or just greenwashing.
Because plastic is a byproduct of oil production. It is a way to get rid of fractions of oil that are not used as fuel. No matter how efficient plastic recycling gets, it will never be cost competitive with new plastic. Refineries will just drop the price of the new plastic to ensure all of it gets sold, since if they couldn’t sell it, they would have to pay to dispose of it.
The real value of plastics isn’t that they’re good materials for things, it’s that they’re a way for oil companies to push the responsibility of disposing of their waste products on to public waste management by laundering it through packaging and cheap junk.
Not exactly true. There are many companies making profit off of recycling. The collecting costs here are by property taxes. Recycling plastic is still less cost than manufacturing virgin material. The sorting is effort, but the repelletinzing is not highly complex. As with anything for sale, for a company to stay in business their product has to cover costs and make profit. Recycled plastic is cheaper than new, sometimes not by a huge %/but enough that when oil prices rise the plastic part manufacturers reach out and order a lot more recycled material.
The plastic that is not easily converted back into consumer materials, is repelletized into fuel pellets. These are used in heating and incinerator systems in place of oil, coal and gas fuels.
Its still just hydrocarbons at the end.
Not saying every country is doing this, and often not every city. But where I’m at 96% of collected material is recycled.
I learned this from playing Satisfactory. I mean, I probably actually learned it in school at some point, but Satisfactory really drove it home. One of the first things you learn after unlocking oil is how to process all the excess oil by-product into plastic… And then straight into the shredder for those sweet sweet Ficsit coupons
And in real life, the shredder is plastic packaging and junk that everyone else has to dispose of when they’re done with it. Not the oil companies problem, now it’s the responsibility of local municipal governments. Your tax dollars subsidizing the disposal of oil company byproducts.
Another side of the issue is that recycling is not government mandated - companies can choose on their own to recycle, and this is costly. When we as a society expect companies to maximize profit, it can come as no surprise that they do not voluntarily pay to be ecologically responsible.
This sounds like cardboard propaganda. When everyone knows cardboard is just a way for lumber companies to dispose of their unused tree parts from 2x4 production.
Is it all made from byproducts or are some plastics made specific from a batch of crude that is refined in a specific way to yield lots of a specific molecule that is needed? I am seriously asking since I dont have a clue.
As in: us there always e ought waste to create plastic no matter what? As long as we refine car propellant, that is.
So, there are certain products of refining oil that are just in the wrong range of properties to be used in their own right as fuels, over a century of work has gone in to finding uses for the stuff that can’t be fuels, or performing alchemy to make it in to fuel, what’s left over at this point is stuff that just… can’t be made in to fuel. Some of the thickest, densest gunk gets turned in to asphalt for roads, this is called bitumen. Above that is heavy oil used in ships or for heating, then diesel, then kerosene/jetfuel, then Naphtha, then petrol/gasoline, and then stuff like butane and propane.
Naphtha is just in this weird space where it’s too thick to be useful for places where you need the fuel to vaporize in to a gas easily like butane or gasoline, but to light to be used in something where you need it to stay liquid at high temperatures, like diesel. Lots of stuff was tried to find a usage for Naphtha but none of it was economical or had a large enough demand to use enough of it. So they started doing catalytic reformation to it, basically smashing the molecules up to make them lighter. This produces a new mix of stuff, the heavier bits are added to gasoline to raises its octane, but the lighter half of this stuff is too short for use in gas. This lighter stuff is mix of some useful stuff like butane and propane, but then there is ethane and a mix of weird aromatic compounds. These are just not useful as fuels and there isn’t an affordable way to process them in to fuels. So… something needs to be done with them; just venting them is not an option because a lot of it is super carcinogenic stuff like benzene.
And this is the issue, this is the bottom of the barrel left overs after so much processing, it can’t be dumped, it can’t be sold as fuel. It’s only useful as chemical feedstocks for making various plastics and chemicals. If we’re going to refine oil to make diesel, jet fuel, and gasoline, we’re gonna end up with these byproducts and we’re spent a century trying to figure out how to use them as fuel, and there just isn’t an economical way to do so. Ether the fuels get way more expensive to cover the costs of disposing of the junk safely, or they get passed along as plastics, chemicals, and asphalt for everyone else to deal with when they’re not useful anymore.
Have some gold kind stranger (and judging b this information also alchemist, wizard and rocket scientist).
🪙
One point is not clear to me though. Are the benzene amounts from fuel production sufficient for all plastic manufacturing or are they in short supply nowadays because of the risen demand for plastic? Or are they just shifting around their processes to be less fuel optimized to create enough plastic precursors if needed?
So, it’s not just benzene but a whole cocktail of aromatics (carbon molecules with rings in them) in addition to the ethane which is used to make poly ethylene plastic.
To answer your question, no, they never alter production for the sake of making more plastic, rather changes in production are driven by the availability of certain types of crude oil (heavy vs light, sweet vs sour) and demand for certain types of fuel. These changes result In more or less production of plastic precursors as a side effect.
Demand for plastic is almost entirely driven by the availability of the precursors, more supply means a lower price, means more uses for plastic become cost effective and displace other materials. They make far more money selling fuels than they do selling plastics. The margins on fuels are much higher as plastic requires additional inputs, additional manufacturing/processing, and additional marketing to be sold.
The fuel sales are effectively subsidizing the cost of plastic, as it would not be cost effective to produce on its own. Other, cheaper, and easier to manufacture materials would displace its uses if it wasn’t already being produced as a byproduct of fuel.
So plastic use is standing on the shoulders of fuel production. Interesting to imagine what materials could emerge as the next default when the prices are not offset by waste disposal needs.
Plastic recycling basically everywhere is a scam. It requires direct government subsidization to be cost competitive with new plastic. Companies actually advertising that they do it or could do it are missing the forest for the trees or just greenwashing.
Because plastic is a byproduct of oil production. It is a way to get rid of fractions of oil that are not used as fuel. No matter how efficient plastic recycling gets, it will never be cost competitive with new plastic. Refineries will just drop the price of the new plastic to ensure all of it gets sold, since if they couldn’t sell it, they would have to pay to dispose of it.
The real value of plastics isn’t that they’re good materials for things, it’s that they’re a way for oil companies to push the responsibility of disposing of their waste products on to public waste management by laundering it through packaging and cheap junk.
Not exactly true. There are many companies making profit off of recycling. The collecting costs here are by property taxes. Recycling plastic is still less cost than manufacturing virgin material. The sorting is effort, but the repelletinzing is not highly complex. As with anything for sale, for a company to stay in business their product has to cover costs and make profit. Recycled plastic is cheaper than new, sometimes not by a huge %/but enough that when oil prices rise the plastic part manufacturers reach out and order a lot more recycled material.
The plastic that is not easily converted back into consumer materials, is repelletized into fuel pellets. These are used in heating and incinerator systems in place of oil, coal and gas fuels. Its still just hydrocarbons at the end.
Not saying every country is doing this, and often not every city. But where I’m at 96% of collected material is recycled.
I learned this from playing Satisfactory. I mean, I probably actually learned it in school at some point, but Satisfactory really drove it home. One of the first things you learn after unlocking oil is how to process all the excess oil by-product into plastic… And then straight into the shredder for those sweet sweet Ficsit coupons
And in real life, the shredder is plastic packaging and junk that everyone else has to dispose of when they’re done with it. Not the oil companies problem, now it’s the responsibility of local municipal governments. Your tax dollars subsidizing the disposal of oil company byproducts.
Another side of the issue is that recycling is not government mandated - companies can choose on their own to recycle, and this is costly. When we as a society expect companies to maximize profit, it can come as no surprise that they do not voluntarily pay to be ecologically responsible.
This sounds like cardboard propaganda. When everyone knows cardboard is just a way for lumber companies to dispose of their unused tree parts from 2x4 production.
Yah, but hear me out, growing trees doesn’t make the planet get hotter.
It in fact has the opposite effect.
Yeah that just sounds like you’d like humans to live in caves again
Is it all made from byproducts or are some plastics made specific from a batch of crude that is refined in a specific way to yield lots of a specific molecule that is needed? I am seriously asking since I dont have a clue.
As in: us there always e ought waste to create plastic no matter what? As long as we refine car propellant, that is.
So, there are certain products of refining oil that are just in the wrong range of properties to be used in their own right as fuels, over a century of work has gone in to finding uses for the stuff that can’t be fuels, or performing alchemy to make it in to fuel, what’s left over at this point is stuff that just… can’t be made in to fuel. Some of the thickest, densest gunk gets turned in to asphalt for roads, this is called bitumen. Above that is heavy oil used in ships or for heating, then diesel, then kerosene/jetfuel, then Naphtha, then petrol/gasoline, and then stuff like butane and propane.
Naphtha is just in this weird space where it’s too thick to be useful for places where you need the fuel to vaporize in to a gas easily like butane or gasoline, but to light to be used in something where you need it to stay liquid at high temperatures, like diesel. Lots of stuff was tried to find a usage for Naphtha but none of it was economical or had a large enough demand to use enough of it. So they started doing catalytic reformation to it, basically smashing the molecules up to make them lighter. This produces a new mix of stuff, the heavier bits are added to gasoline to raises its octane, but the lighter half of this stuff is too short for use in gas. This lighter stuff is mix of some useful stuff like butane and propane, but then there is ethane and a mix of weird aromatic compounds. These are just not useful as fuels and there isn’t an affordable way to process them in to fuels. So… something needs to be done with them; just venting them is not an option because a lot of it is super carcinogenic stuff like benzene.
And this is the issue, this is the bottom of the barrel left overs after so much processing, it can’t be dumped, it can’t be sold as fuel. It’s only useful as chemical feedstocks for making various plastics and chemicals. If we’re going to refine oil to make diesel, jet fuel, and gasoline, we’re gonna end up with these byproducts and we’re spent a century trying to figure out how to use them as fuel, and there just isn’t an economical way to do so. Ether the fuels get way more expensive to cover the costs of disposing of the junk safely, or they get passed along as plastics, chemicals, and asphalt for everyone else to deal with when they’re not useful anymore.
Have some gold kind stranger (and judging b this information also alchemist, wizard and rocket scientist).
🪙
One point is not clear to me though. Are the benzene amounts from fuel production sufficient for all plastic manufacturing or are they in short supply nowadays because of the risen demand for plastic? Or are they just shifting around their processes to be less fuel optimized to create enough plastic precursors if needed?
So, it’s not just benzene but a whole cocktail of aromatics (carbon molecules with rings in them) in addition to the ethane which is used to make poly ethylene plastic.
To answer your question, no, they never alter production for the sake of making more plastic, rather changes in production are driven by the availability of certain types of crude oil (heavy vs light, sweet vs sour) and demand for certain types of fuel. These changes result In more or less production of plastic precursors as a side effect.
Demand for plastic is almost entirely driven by the availability of the precursors, more supply means a lower price, means more uses for plastic become cost effective and displace other materials. They make far more money selling fuels than they do selling plastics. The margins on fuels are much higher as plastic requires additional inputs, additional manufacturing/processing, and additional marketing to be sold.
The fuel sales are effectively subsidizing the cost of plastic, as it would not be cost effective to produce on its own. Other, cheaper, and easier to manufacture materials would displace its uses if it wasn’t already being produced as a byproduct of fuel.
Thank you for clarifying!
So plastic use is standing on the shoulders of fuel production. Interesting to imagine what materials could emerge as the next default when the prices are not offset by waste disposal needs.