I have multiple remote locations where I currently use OpenWrt combo router/APs for purposes like connecting to network, running VPNs, extending LANs to these VPNs, adding Wi-Fi APs - you know, normal router stuff.
I recently came into possession of multiple 3.5" HDDs and was looking for ways to utilize them best. My servers run on NVMEs and I have plenty of storage already, so I was thinking that I’d like to replace the routers with something that can take the HDDs to have a more distributed backup infrastructure.
The requirements are:
- Be a normal PC with UEFI. I prefer ARM, but this is not realistic, so probably x64. I came to the conclusion that I hate OpenWrt and everything not normal GNU/systemd software.
- Have at least two Ethernet ports, preferably 2.5 gigabit - I intend to keep using the existing routers as Wi-Fi APs and those have 2.5G ports.
- Have a small physical footprint and be quiet, ideally something like the AirPort Extreme of the olden days - people are less likely to unplug something that looks more like a router than a server. The routers are extremely remote (think 3 days travel time), people who live nearby are elderly (more blinking lights must mean more expensive), Wi-Fi provided by my hardware is their only connection, no cellular or anything, they’d get completely cut off from the world, so calling them and saying they need to do some maintenance is not an option.
- Have two 3.5" bays - my normal servers reside on RAIDZ as root filesystem, here I’m thinking of mirroring the drives to have at least some hardware redundancy. Having more than two is bad due to the reason above.
- Be decently powerful - routing sounds like an easy task, but I need to keep a convoluted VPN setup (plus syncoid backups!) and that overwhelms 2 core celerons pretty quickly. Since I’m adding storage I also wanted to add some local mirrors for services as well, but that’s low priority.
- Be in the 200-300€ range. I need to buy at least 5 of these. Blowing through my entire 2027 hardware budget before the year even starts sounds a bit painful.
Web search gave me an AOOSTAR R7 small PC that looks like a perfect match (the ports, the bays, Ryzen 7 5825U and DDR4 RAM! for about 300€), but sadly I can’t find it in stock anywhere.
Small note about the Ethernet ports: one to the upstream network (an option to have more than 1 gigabit exists in some places), one to the AP, that is 2.5G. If there’s an option to have more ports, that would be mad, I’d replace even the hardware at my home.
I also kinda dislike the idea of having SFP ports, I can’t go pure fiber (the upstream networks use proprietary connectors that are a pain to source and setup, I just use the bridges provided by them; the AP has copper Ethernet) and had a bad experience with the SFP to copper adapters.
I’m sure someone in this community has already solved this problem, so hoping this discussion will be useful for someone else as well.
Sidebar, why do you hate OpenWrt?
systemd is fine but it’s trying to be so many things in so many ways that it’s not optimal for a lot of purposes - embedded devices included. Keep in mind OpenWrt was designed with low end hardware (often as low as 8MB flash, 32MB RAM) in mind, where systemd would consume resources unnecessarily.
And OpenWrt is a pretty well designed OS. Simplified, single language configuration for everything, translated at runtime to the appropriate tool config, good packaging, good release cadence, the list goes on.
https://eu.bee-link.com/products/beelink-me-pro
BeeLink has an option.
Pro:
- get a 5G and 2.5G port
Con:
- soldered RAM (ew)
- 5G port is Realtek (for some reason 2.5 is Intel)
Thanks, I see older versions of this thing with socketed RAM that are much closer to the budget. Maybe this will be the one. Port situation is strange, I’ll need to research it.
I hate OpenWrt and everything not normal GNU/systemd software.
I’m out. I’ve been doing this 33 years, but this rot can’t be helped. There is nothing normal about Systemd.
Good luck, though.
gnu/systemd
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/systemd, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus systemd. Systemd is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning Linux system made useful by the systemd modules, GNU utilities and vital kernel components comprising a full OS as defined by Red Hat.
Sorry, i couldn’t refrain.
thanks, the trap worked as intended
I would go with a normal size PSU and mATX motherboard in the smallest PC case that will take 2x HDD bays and still have some decent airflow. Very easy to find and replace components.
If you want to spend more money and have the smallest possible case you can go for SFX PSU and mITX motherboard, but remember to allow for HDD cooling – I wouldn’t drop below 80mm for the cooling fan, and if you’re gonna use just one single fan be careful with the positioning, ideally it should be doing evac right next to the HDDs.
I like small things and I actually recently built a gaming/workstation PC with mITX ans SFX PSU. The gpu is probably taking about the same footprint as two 3.5" disks will. The complete PC is at least five times larger than what I’d like to have as a router and I promise there’s absolutely no space inside that goes unused. I liked micgerne’s suggestion since that board does not require an additional power supply.
What typically keeps me from going very small is the fact you trade replaceability and OS support when you stray from ATX-ish form factors. You can still find a PSU or mobo for them years later but it’s anybody’s guess if an integrated SFF board will still be made next year. And the OS/driver situation is very hit and miss for integrated boards.
The AOOOSTAR board can be bought from aliexpress, but I think it’s not called like that. Just search for nas motherboard 8-bay sata. There are also options with Intel CPUs
Edit: one of the brands is topton
yeah, I found topton as the I guess original designer of those AOOSTAR boards, but I wanted a complete pre-built PC, link
When it’s 3 days away I’d worry less about bays and more about what happens when it hangs: auto power-on, a hardware watchdog, a fallback boot you can pick remotely. N150 boards with two 2.5G ports exist, but almost none take two 3.5" drives, so you’ll probably end up with a USB dock, and the neighbors will unplug it. Does it have to be one box? I’m building a small N150 home box and remote recovery is the part I keep going back and forth on.
auto power-on sounds like a normal ACPI thing, no? at least all my hardware does that.
USB dock is not an option due to the reason you said yourself, so yes, one box is critical.
hardkernel make a bunch of different SBCs (and other stuff) that might fit your use case. I’ve got an H4+ running opnsense, might be overkill for what you want, but it does have sata ports and 2 2.5 GbE.
hmmm this is very nice and I guess I can just print a generic-looking case for this. can it power the HDDs though?
edit: I see it can. this is amazing, thanks!
another edit: but it has the same issue as the AOOSTAR one - the H4 plus is out of stock. The newer H5 can’t provide SATA power.
the other option could be to get one of those cheap no-name boxes off aliexpress, reliability and support can be a bit hit or miss though.
I’m not sure what you count as decently powerful but I think a Zimaboard 2 meets the rest of your requirements. Just be aware if you’re using both SATA ports you might not be able to use the PCIe port as well as it struggles to provide enough power for all 3
I don’t have a suggestion for what you’re searching but my 2 cents are that maybe reconsider replacing OpenWRT routers with custom boxes. Generally speaking it’s a bad idea to mix a router with other purposes, especially if maintenance is such a big issue and the router connection is their only internet.
You may not like OpenWRT but it’s reliable, and devices that were designed to be a router are much more reliable for this purpose than a NAS box with an USB adapter.
Add the servers next to the router, sure. Maybe add a JetKVM Mini to the server to help with remote maintenance. But leave their routers alone IMHO.
All my servers are routers, I have a mesh network. OpenWRT routers do not participate in the mesh since that is a pain to set up and maintain, that’s part of my desire to move the routers to my unified NixOS config. Since my repo is larger than the available storage on most consumer routers, you’re right, I’d need a small custom box, be it a small pre-built NUC-like thing or something I build myself.
I dislike OpenWRT because it does not have automatic updates, and updating remotely while keeping all the packages required for the network to work is extremely risky.
I did it once
by pre-downloading the newer versions of the required software and putting in the launch script a bunch of commands telling it blindly to basically to install all those packages, use the configs, and reboot. The update seemed succesful, but a few weeks later it turned out that sometimes (like for an hour every three days) wireless clients could not connect to one of the APs because DHCP failed for some reason. Nothing in the config looked wrong, and the only thing that fixed that was completely wiping the router and then applying the configuration again from a backup. I did not like that at all since I had to send a relative with a laptop and different router (remember how no network without the router) to try to troubleshoot that remotely, that quickly failed due to taking too much time to reproduce the issue so I ended up just replacing the router.
I can’t just ignore the updates due to all the zero-days we are getting almost weeky with the LLMs and my ISP or someone on the network is trying to actively get into my stuff. The routers behind CG-NAT are getting almost the same kind of obnoxious port scanning and ssh login attempts as my servers with public IPs, drastically less volume though.
USB adapter sounds extremely flaky, I agree, and that would never be something I’d use here, but! my first NAS was a windows 8-era tablet with an HDD connected via USB 3.0 adapter. It was way more reliable than you’d think.
I also got the impression that you think that I’m messing with people’s routers just for the fun of it. That is not the case, the problem is that there’s no internet without VPNs provided by my routers (that’s a simplification of the situation, but just accept this explanation). JetKVM would also not work for that reason. My goal is to be able to monitor that the heating and water supply still work and my 80 year old grandmother will not freeze to death because her CNG supply ran out and she has too much pride to ask someone to do something about that.
I have a Ugreen NAS, which has everything you’re asking for, except dual Ethernet (which I solved with a USB-C converter). Works fine.
@GrapheneOSRuinedMyPixel
Small footprint and systemd ??? That’s just an oximoron!!
